Dear all,

just wondered if anyone could give me advice on a current pupil. I have a cello pupil who came to me about just over a year ago. She is a very good player, very musical and picks techniques up fast with a good understanding.

Her ears are excellent and she regularly listens to me play something to her, which she then plays back to me from ear!

Sounds great, but.... problems are that she doesnt practise much and doesnt read music well.

We have prepared grade 1 music previously and missed the date for the entries because she wasn't ready through lack of practise and are now at the stage where she has prepared again and entries are due end of Sept. Her pieces are good (she has of course learned them aurally without music), she knows her scales and obviously has no troublewith aural tests. Of course the big problem here is sight reading and I'm concerned that the experience in an exam might scare her too much as she's not a very good reader?

Every lesson we do some reading work with flashcards and games etc, I do sight reading and have tried everything i can think of to try to get her to start to read but I'm failing miserably! Now I just don't know what else to do to improve this!? Plus I'm not sure what to do about exams. She's worked hard and deserves the chance i think, but I know that unless she starts to read she'll probably have difficulty in the near future.

Ho, hum! Is it OK to enter her for the exam when I know she'll fail the sight reading miserably?!

All help and advice gratefully received.

Thank you all, hope your start to the new term was good.

Jay

Every lesson we do some reading work with flashcards and games etc, I do sight reading and have tried everything i can think of to try to get her to start to read but I'm failing miserably! Now I just don't know what else to do to improve this!? Plus I'm not sure what to do about exams. She's worked hard and deserves the chance i think, but I know that unless she starts to read she'll probably have difficulty in the near future.

Ho, hum! Is it OK to enter her for the exam when I know she'll fail the sight reading miserably?!

She sounds like she has great potential.

Don't let that be squashed by the narrowness of doing Grade 1 now.

Do teach her to read music! Steadily, with the games and flashcards and maybe some easy (very easy duets) where she HAS to read the music because it isn't an obvious melody and she HAS to keep going to fit in with your (slow) pulse.

Exams are there for the kids. It's not the other way around. Good luck!

Obvious first step: don't play to her until she has had a fortnight or so to sort the music out by reading the dots, and then only to illustrate an interpretative point, not to correct a wrong note. You had better warn her parents that she is not to listen to anyone else playing the piece during this time.

Slightly less obvious second point: teach her sight singing. There are several good methods, most have which have been discussed extensively at various times and places on this site.

Is there a local orchestra for young players of her standard she could go to? She's going to find out there that, to really succeed as a musician, she's got to read. Seeing others playing and improving may also inspire her to work a bit harder herself. Getting a young musician to read fluently, in my experience, only really takes off when they see the need!

For those playing orchestral/band instruments joining an ensemble can be quite an eye-opener. Yes, of course, she could simply sit and "copy" those around her but my hunch would be she'll get fed up with always being one note or two behind and will decide (as she seems pretty bright) to get stuck in and improve her reading.

That said, are you sure that there's no problems with her sight and eye co-ordination ie can she see the lines/spaces clearly and the notes on them properly? I have a pupil who couldn't and it wasn't until we realised this that I was able to alert her parents to the problem, they sought medical help and now, with glasses, she's fine.

Hope you get this sorted - she sounds a good prospect.

You can only do so much in lessons- can you either find/write a set of daily sightreading for her starting at whatever level she finds easy (even if that is 3 or 4 notes all on open strings or moving only by step) and gradually progress to the desired level. I have also disguised note reading exercises as 'name that tune' when a student didn't want to practice 'sightreading'. Hopefully you can persuade her to spend 15 seconds each practice session on this and work it up gradually.

Hi there,

The "Improve your Sight Reading" books by Paul Harris (Published by Faber) can be useful for structured sight reading teaching/practice.

I think there is one book for Grades 1 - 3 for the Cello.

Best wishes

Like violincjj says, she doesn't NEED to take grade 1. Carry on, try all the ways of cracking sight-reading, and don't worry about exams. You may find that reading music suddenly "clicks" and then she can go in at whatever grade level is appropriate.

This is a really good point. When I was learning the recorder in primary school the teacher used to play every piece first on the piano. As your student does I had the aural ability right at the start to listen to the piece and play it by ear so even though I had the music in front of me I never learnt to read it because I never needed to read it (I knew how to read it but I never did, particularly the rhythm...). Your student sounds like an aural learner, as such it will be almost impossible for her to learn to read the music if you play it to her first (I've been there...): try to think about it from her perspective, she's heard you play it and knows what to play now from listening to it so even if she were to follow the music she'd just be looking at what she already knows rather than actually reading or counting.

As such, because she will have little experience of reading music from scratch, she will have little confidence in whether she is correct or not (again I've experienced this) particuarly with rhythm as notes are a lot more easily determined as right or wrong (although on cello that may be an issue to with intonation, I don't know as I'm not a string player). If she reads a piece on her own she won't know if she's playing it rightly or wrongly and so will have no confidence in her ability to do it, hence no motivation to do it or interest in doing it . Therefore I would suggest as a start lots of encouragement of clapping rhythms correctly and playing pieces from the music with you showing her afterwards what it sounds like, and pointing out how close she was to getting the right sound. This will give her genuine reading experience and confidence that she's doing it right.

The other important point that has been made is that you must stop playing pieces for her first. Not all of them because she will probably feel demoralised that she's going backwards and wants to leave but at least half of them and gradually wean her off it. The major thing that stopped me from doing this was to learn the piano because with multiple parts going on at once (even if it's just two) it's ten times more difficult to play by ear and reading the music suddenly becomes a more attractive prospect . Whilst I wouldn't suggest taking up the piano purely as a solution to this problem, perhaps letting her play the lower part of some duets with you but only allowing her to hear a recording (you could make it?) of both parts together, will make it more difficult for her to rely on her aural sense too much (whilst still giving her the comfort blanket of a recording for a start) and thus encourage her to look at the music.

Okay so all of the previous paragraphs are based on the assumption that she learns aurally in the same way I did, but I'm sure many people must experience learning in the same way: I don't think that I'm unique.


Indeed, in this case grade 1 may be a bit of a discouraging and not worthwhile event to her. I think the best thing to do would be, as Sarah says, to continue working until hear sightreading catches up with her then go for whichever grade she is ready for at that time. Obviously to ensure that the sighreading does catch up you will have to shift the focus of the lessons, and her practice, more towards sighreading to give it the extra push it needs to catch up.

Best of luck: I'm sure that she'll really appreciate it if you can do this for her as she will then have the best of both worlds, good aural playing ability and good reading skills .

Just posted this in another thread but seems relevant:


The clapping up and down (ie clapping near the head for higher notes and then down by their bellies for low notes, if that makes sense?) was something they came up with and they thought it was a great laugh, AND it really seemed to help them immensely! I was amazed.

Also read the posts by Cyrilla and Barcarolle particularly in that thread about clapping and singing, which are immensely helpful things to do - especially for someone who maybe struggles with reading rhythm, it can be tough to read rhythm AND get the notes right AND bow well ... etc etc! So doing the rhythm seperately can really help. barcarolle and cyrilla's posts here

I agree with Sarah. Forget about exams for the moment provided your student doesn't mind. But DO try all the ways you can to crack sight-reading! My daughter is a total disaster at this. She watched the TV my hubby told me whilst practising, not her score. You see, your student must have a pretty good memory so SR didn't seem to matter at the initial stage of learning. But don't let her get away with this. My daughter's teacher practically forces her to SR at EVERY lesson nowadays. Do the same. She'll be very grateful to you quite soon!

I just wanted to add that I have recently entered a 16 year old pupil for an exam, he could barely read from notation, but plays astonishingly well by ear (I'm talking grade 5 standard). He hated sight reading and scales and I was really nervous about putting him in for the exam when I considered him to not be prepared enough, but at the same time I had my reasons for moving him at this pace.

However, no amount of me stressing the importance of reading from stave notation and working on scales sunk in. So we get to the exam day, he goes in and comes out with an absolutely beaming smile. Like you, I was anxious that this would be too much for him and that he'd never want to do another exam. As it was enough of what I taught him had sunk in (mostly subconsciously I think) and on the day he pulled it off.

But more importantly, being examined has shown him the importance of being able to respond on his own. In the next lesson he wanted to know more scales, more sight reading pleeeeease!! (his words)

So sometimes I think it pays to push a student who has natural aptitude and either lacks in other areas or doesn't want to commit to learning the "boring stuff".

Good luck with your cellist, she sounds like a great student.

P.S. My pupil came out with a merit incase you were wondering! Also, now scales and sight reading are deemed worthy of his time during lessons!!

There can be all sorts of reasons why she doesn't practise much. Try these: doesn't need to because she finds it easy; the material she is expected to practise is not challenging\enjoyable enough to engage her; she has other interests that interest her more; she is bone idle, to name but a few.

From your description, she does not need to read music well - she can play it all from memory.


If she can play the pieces, know the scales and can do the aural then where is the difficulty with the exam. Failing the sight-reading might do her good. In terms of life, learning to cope with failure is a good thing. In terms of music, it might help persuade her that Reading Music Is A Useful Thing To Do.


Her memory is a strength. Instead of beating yourself up over it, accommodate it and develop it. Accept that good memorisers will always play from memory (trust me, I know this to be true, from personal experience). Work to help them develop their reading without making them feel that an exceptional memory is somehow a failing - it is not.


Yes. If she gets top marks for pieces, scales and aural she will gain a distinction despite failing sight-reading.

Steve

While on the subject of learning from memory perhaps someone can help me > I was begged by a parent to teach her son aged 6 the piano as he kept picking up tunes by ear. After 6 months of lessons, he can only read 3 or 4 notes - and finds reading such music boring as is far below the level of his musical understanding. Each week he brings to me a new tune that he has picked up - eg. wallace and Gromit (including the slightly different endings for each film) , balamory etc. I have taught him how to play triads with the left hand - and so he has a stab at simple harmony as well. Any suggestions please?? He has slight autistic tendencies, so anything needing an imagination is very hard work.

Having never been in this position I cannot offer advice from direct experience.

My instinct here is this: don't force the music reading - children mature at different rates and a 6 year old boy is often not ready for this skill; encourage his 'ear' and enjoy his progress through this; watch for the opportunity to introduce note reading when he perceives the need to learn it; be flexible.

Wouldn't it be nice if kids followed a set pattern?

Hey-ho

Steve

Hi Jacky

Not speaking as a piano teacher (I teach guitar) a friend of mine is similar to the boy you mention in your message. He has a really good ear for popular songs and spends hours harmonising simple melodies on the piano.

He triend normal piano lessons, but became bored of it very quickly so he changed teachers. His new teacher reccommended the Yamaha school of keyboard lessons. I believe that you still learn how to read music and learn all the technique, but a lot of the music is popular songs and you can do exercises in harmonisation and improvisation.

It might be worth suggesting it or having a look into a diferent method of teaching other than more classical/ traditionally structured study?

Apologies to any piano teachers reading this, if my information is incorrect.

Yes she could still get a good mark in the exam without passing the sight reading bit

BUT

she will have done this by being TAUGHT the pieces and scales rather than having LEARNED them

which I can't help but think is a bad thing!

(Sorry to shout. I think reading is important. Two of my kids did Suzuki violin and I have a bit of a kneejerk reaction to the "decoding-the-dots" is hard issue.)

How she learns them is less important than that she learns them successfully, plays them musically and enjoys that.

Teachers with students like this one should play to their strengths. The reading must be developed gently; any attempt to force the pace will result in an upset child.

Memory is a strength, not a weakness. Ultimatly, all well-prepared performances are given from memory, regardless of the presence of absense of the score. This child is very good at reaching this stage quickly.

The reading will come. It will come quickly when the child perceives the need for it, not when her teacher insists it should. This child's teacher is on the right path.

Frankly, there would be few entrants if success in AB exams depended on candidates being absolutely on top of every single aspect of the syllabus.

Steve

actually, no!

In one sense I know what you mean of course.

But I think part of the fun of what we do (for me at least) is in observing all the different angles they approach playing from, and how differently various pupils respond to the learning process.

How she learns them is less important than that she learns them successfully, plays them musically and enjoys that.

Teachers with students like this one should play to their strengths. The reading [i]must be developed gently; any attempt to force the pace will result in an upset child.[/I]


But you also said Steve that failing the sight reading in the Grade 1 exam might do some good! So is it OK to upset her in a completely non-learning situation and not OK to nudge gently towards reading competance in a lesson?

With the overall flavour in teaching and learning reading in the lessons being "I know you find this a little hard but I know we can find ways of making it all make sense for you."

Yes memory is fab I agree. But how many orchestras do you hear playing from memory? Don't they use those black dots on the page to rehearse, polish, perform?

[SIZE=1]Hi!

A lot of this has probably already been said (sorry I'm a skim reader!) but here goes....

I noticed somebody mentioned the Yamaha school of music... I'm training to teach the Junior Keyboard class there, and the methods of teaching they use are extremely varied, and put emphasis on both playing by ear, and reading sheet music. It's completely different from the way I teach my private piano pupils, but it's a great method and I've picked up some good tips.

I think your pupil is doing fine where she is though (i.e: with you!)

The feeling I get from a lot of teachers/musicians I know, is that the having ability to read music is overrated. Personally, I don't agree!

Obviously this girl is talented and should be encouraged to use her gift (being able to play by ear), but if you can show her that she can still express herself while reading sheet music, it may seem like less of a chore to her. Perhaps she thinks the written music will stifle her? Insist she plays a piece of music as it's written, but allow her decide where the dynamics should go etc... that way she still has creative control!

Hope that helps and I wasn't just rambling

Amanda xx

Yes, memory is a good and helpful thing, but if you can only play by ear - cannot read a piece of music from the page - then you can only ever learn music you can hear first, which limits you a lot.

You are missing the point of what I say, so:

- If you ignore or try to suppress, her strength (memory) you are implying this has no value.

- If you press the reading stuff beyond what she can cope with, in addition to ingoring her strength, you will upset her.

- Upset her enough and she will stop playing the instrument.

- Failing sight reading in the exam might help her to see that music reading is actually a useful skill. Part of your job is to help her see that. If you upset her sufficiently whilst trying to do this in addition to making her feel that her strength is of no value, you will lose her.

- She can pass exams comfortably, as most of the rest of us did, even though she might have a weakness in a part of the syllabus. She can even achieve a Distinction after failing, say, sight-reading so long as she achieves stunning results with her pieces and good marks elsewhere.

- All this is not easy. It is the not-easy stuff that we teachers are paid for.

Additionally, the fact that orchestras read the score is irrelevant here. You are dealing with a child whose orchestral days are in the future. You are confusing issues here.

Hope this helps

Steve

All cows eat grass.....

I eat grass too....

So it has to follow - I'm a cow!





I'll agree to disagree

Pardon?

Your absolute insistance on missing the point merely makes you look silly.

Steve

I once did an experiment with a pupil of mine who was extremely aural but who struggled with her reading - I'm afraid I taught her the grade 1 pieces by rote. It resulted in a far more fluent performance in a shorter time than if I'd just insisted that she'd battle through learning the pieces by reading. If I had insisted on the reading, the chances were, she would have highly possibly have misread a rhythm or note and practised it wrongly, hence being more difficult to then eradicate. And it could well have taken her months, and become disheartening for her, as her general level of playing ability was beyond her reading. I haven't done this since, but I'm certainly glad I did it for her, and I may well teach by rote again if I feel it would benefit a particular student. (She got a merit for her exam, by the way!) We have really worked at her sight-reading since but it is still not what I would call fluent - she is definitely more of an aural learner.

Horses for courses isn't it, cd?

I teach a dyslexic whose dyslexia causes her to fail to recognise patterns. She plays mostly from memory as she has no other choice. She reads individual symbols, so starting a new piece she works out, and I write, the individual letter names of every note in the piece; she knows at home that she is playing the correct ones. I never thought I would resort to this.

You, like I, recognise that different individuals have different needs.

Mind you, I hope my dyslexic never has to learn a Rachmaninov concerto

Steve

I have been rebuked by moderators who have received complaints about this remark.

I aopolgise to anyone I have offended.

What I should have written was this.

It is incumbent on all competent, professional teachers to adapt their methods to suit the overall ability of their pupils. English primary school teachers are required to 'differentiate' i.e. adapt the course material to the needs of every child in their class. Competent professional instrumental\vocal teachers should be able to accommodate the strengths and weaknesses of their pupils. They should use these strengths to enhance the esteem of their pupils. They are required to work to improve those areas of weakness, adopting encouraging, non-threatening, non-dogmatic styles. True professional teachers with expertise and experience will be flexible and non-dogmatic.

Hope that clarifies my thoughts.

Steve

This cello pupil who doesn't sightread well is a student I'd love to teach.
Having been a weak sightreader and gone through all the piano grades, my advice would be as said already - ENTER the exams!
Sightreading is only one aspect of the overall exam. It is far easier to get high marks in the AB exams if you play 3 pieces musically very well (aural musicians playing from memory ofen play the tunes they know by heart very musically), the aural part will be a no-brainer. I speak from experience, I got distinctions in all but one exam, with weak sight-reading skills, and dreaded this bit every time.
Getting a poor mark in sight-reading may (as said already) encourage more effort in this area.
Having said that, there is lots a good 'aural' musician can do to fudge sightreading - the advice for good sightreading practice (found on these forums in abundance, eg keep going no matter what) will help. Aural players are often good at being given a key signature and playing in that key. (I once had an audition to study Organ, where the test was to sightread an Organ Bach fugue on a piano, instructed to 'ignore the organ pedal clef'! I didn't stop, I played in the right key, stopped when there were rests (not many rests either)... got through, but judging by the wry smile on the examiners face, they obviously knew this piece well, and what I played wasn't always what they expected!).

I see a lot of young sightreaders who don't properly understand key-sigs and will often play a note outside the key-sig (eg: f natural instead of f# in Gmajor) without hearing the error. They disassociate the scales (and their key-sigs) they know well from written music, which means the scales are then merely technical finger exercises rather than also being a big aid to playing tunes in different keys.
I have a good aural pupil (who also sightreads well incidently), I get her to play twinkle-twinkle and baa-baa..sheep in c-major by ear, then in every key she knows scales of, no sheetmusic of course, calling out the key-sig each time. I'm trying to link scales she knows well with key-sigs. She finds it easy on piano - and fun.

And agree with the orchestral comments - once this cello pupil tries to play with others, she will either sightread or mime or sit still. The importance of sightreading will become vividly clear. The sooner she joins one the better.

If this isn't nipped in the bud, she may well end up like me - always weaker at sightreading than one should be. Not a major issue if you can play well 'by ear', but limiting nonetheless.
As Steve has said - work with her strengths while encouraging improvement in the weaknesses, or you may switch her off what is obviously very enjoyable for this student - playing musical music!
Enter her in exams - she will thrive! I'd put money on it!!

scary thought

I agree with those who think that aural skills and memory are a good thing, but I do think that if at all possible (for some it may not be) it's best to try and help pupils improve their reading skills. I have seen the frustration of people who can't read music fluently. My brother was a decent pianist but gave it up due to a not-great teacher. His ear is still very good but his reading was always weaker, and with lack of practice over the years he now has to count lines. It's so frustrating for him to try and play a piece that he can't quite remember - he knows how it's supposed to sound, but struggles to remember which keys to press to make that sound, and because his reading is weak, even having the music doesn't help so much. I am a better reader and have had practice over the years, so if I don't know how a piece goes then the music even if I don't need to read every note is like a map that helps me get my bearings - for him, the music is like a code which has to be painfully worked out. If he'd been stronger in sight-reading in the first place and didn't have such a struggle then going back to pieces he once knew wouldn't be a fraction as frustrating as it is.

The ideal combination is someone with good aural skills and fluent sight-reading, and obviously most people don't fit into that category without practice of the weaker areas, but I think that most can do extra work on one area to pull it up a bit, then they aren't always having to overcompensate using their stronger area.

Sure is

Sarah, you clearly feel strongly about this and have thought about it a lot. How about giving Jay some practical tips for helping her daughter improve her reading?

Steve

As soon as I think of anything that is helpful and which hasn't been mentioned elsewhere I will! It's not a problem I have to deal with on a regular basis, and I rather suspect that the teacher who started this thread has more experience than me.

One thing that I know helps my flute girl is that I have her clap the rhythms before she tries to play the piece. Often she surprises herself by being able to clap at sight rhythms which, with the instrument in her hands, she sees as "too complicated, can't do it". Also, encourage sight-reading before the piece has been heard aurally - or even just a few bars. And any success in sight-reading should be encouraged and praised (though i do agree with Steve that good aural skills and a good memory should not be regarded as second best: I just think that you ideally need both, and the weaker side should be helped just as the stronger traits should be praised and encouraged)

there are a couple of threads which might help, and if "sight reading" is put into the search engine then you'll end up with more info than you could use in a lifetime!

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...ndpost&p=142290

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=7934&hl=

Not a teacher, of course, but this is always an interesting topic...

Son Viohazard did very badly in his sightreading in Grade 5 violin, but not badly enough to cost him the exam (which would be a pretty bitter pill to administer deliberately). The experience did help him - if only because the ABRSM sightreading material came in 1 book from Grade 1-5, so he could start at the very easiest level and work up. I knew he wasn't going to get anywhere near Grade 5 level in a month or two, but having short passages of material at his level was useful. The exam taught hiim that sightreading is considered an important skill. He now practices sightreading unasked (sometimes, that is! ).

I agree with Steve's comments, and I also second Sarah's recommendation for clapping the rhythm. Unexpectedly, it was reading the rhythmic values of the notes at speed that was hardest for Viohazard.

Heidi ('Sight-singing material for a young singer') had the same problem in her grade 5 violin. It is still something of a difficulty, even after a whole summer spent learning to sight-sing. Pitch, no problem; complex rhythms still cause difficulty. Clapping umpteen comples rhythm patters only makes a modest difference.

Complex rhythms are amongst the hardest aspects of music for kids to master and has quite a lot to do with brain development. If the part of the brain that controls this has not yet developed sufficiently, then the child will be deficient.

One morning Viohazard will wake up, his brain will have made the relevant connection and rhythm difficulties will have disappeared; so will Heidi.

Hope it happens soon, mind, as it drives me nuts

Steve

Well I didn't complain about your post Steve and I'm not offended.

I don't agree with you. I think your points of view contradict each other.

But hey, no problem in that is there?

Kind and gracious of you to say so.

Don't know when you will read this, mind.

Why's Heidi going to disappear??!

Wishful thinking.

Not really

nice one, chocolatedog!