I have a trumpet pupil who I've been teaching for about six months; she is still at primary school and has just passed grade 4. She has rather pushy parents - for example, they requested the grade 5 scales and pieces the very lesson after she took the grade 4 exam - and is very quiet and unassuming. I've managed to get her parents to understand that a pass at grade 4 doesn't mean she's ready to take grade 5, and indeed I don't think she is ready and won't be for a while. The trouble is, she doesn't seem to like playing any music at all. All the pieces I suggest or those that we work on for a few lessons are "boring" (said politely and quietly, apologetically rather than rudely); when I asked her what music she would like to play she replied "don't know" (with body language saying she would rather be anywhere else). I even asked what music she DIDN'T like and she said "don't know." Asked if she watched Top of the Pops, what her favourite tv progs were, if she bought cd's, watched cartoons, anything I could think of to get some idea of how to motivate her into doing something or expressing a preference either way, but... nothing. She doesn't like playing duets (even the new music medals ones which all my other similarly aged pupils seem to really enjoy), doesn't want to join a band or orchestra, doesn't want to play along with a cd or do any jazzy stuff, just doesn't want to do anything! I suspect she doesn't really enjoy playing all that much, and that her parents supervise and criticise her practice (I've had her dad coming in saying: "she's having trouble with xxx, can you fix it please"). She also does a lot of other extra curricular activities and frequently looks worn out. I thought she would enjoy a rest from constant exams (which she also didn't appear to enjoy either) and the chance to learn some actual "tunes", but I'm starting to lose my patience a bit. I really want her to enjoy her lessons and get something from them, but she obviously doesn't - if I stop teaching her she'll just get hauled off to another teacher and the whole thing will start again (unless she just doesn't like me!). It's difficult to talk to her parents as they seem so obsessed with her paper achievements, passing exams and so on. What can I do?

Gone on a bit, sorry!

Can you ask maybe what other activities she enjoys doing and then somehow use them for composition ideas? I don't know if doing some composition would work or not, but if you talked through the activity like e.g. a play station game, she could invent tunes for each character or level and put together a short piece, which if she had written she may want to play? Just a thought - I obviously don't know your pupil, but I have one similar - very fussy in musical taste, and in the end if I give him too much choice and he says 'don't like them' I just say OK - it's this one or that one - no more choice sonny! (Well not in those exact words!!) But yes, it can be extreeeeeeeeeeemely frustrating!!

i spose it affects income, doesn it?

me, id do a pontius pilate on this pupil.
if they can't choose what music to play then you can't teach em.

I've got the same problem with a new student. He's six and he and big sis came for a consulatation lesson (will have 2 more before deciding whether to carry on permanantly). He came for piano, her for singing. Big sis is has a terrific attitude and very mature for her age. He is a six year old boy (need I say much more). His mum did suggest he was interested because big sis was doing something (was exact same for me with drama but I ended up taking it much further than the siblings!). He absolutley left me shattered trying to keep him interested, anytime I tried playing an example on the piano (nursery ryhmes, Debussy, funk, jazz) he just denounced it as 'boring' with a big grin.

I then asked naturally (just in case he'd changed his mind), 'do you really want to learn to play the piano?' and he grinned and nodded!

For people who think I was just playing to him for half an hour, it was just five second snippets to show how tempo was important no matter what you played. We looked inside the piano, had a feel, played with pedal sounds, then marched together and we learned to beat time (him using my brother's cerimonial gavel! ) we played crotchets on middle c and did lots of clapping but I really don't know if I'm going to engage him!

Any ideas?

Sometimes it seems a pity we have to try to be nice all the time.
I remember responding in that way once...... never, ever did a second time..
Wouldn't even consider it now.

Jazzywench, I had a similar situation recently but both on piano.
When it became clear that the boy was not really responding I just had a word with the parents suggesting that he might not yet be ready for formal tuition.
I still have the sister.

You say that you have been teaching her for 6 months. Had she been learning with another teacher prior to this, Grade 4 sounds very advanced for primary level. Yes, it is difficult when you are trying to satisfy parents and kids with different ambitions! If you don't mind losing a pupil I would go down the honest route and try to build up a good relationship with the child. Do you like the trumpet, do you feel that you are being pushed into it, would you prefer to do something, what do your friends do???? A few ideas!!!
The parents indeed might whisk her off to a less scrupulous teacher but that is a risk you take.

It is frustrating for you.

Good luck

Katie

We all get these from time to time. I am past the stage when I will continue to struggle. I tell the parents that the child is gaining nothing and that I am no longer ready to try to teach him\her.

That seems to me to be the sensible option, otherwise individuals like these come to dominate our waking thoughts (they can even get into our dreams ).

Good luck

Steve

I am afraid it is, in part, a sad reflection of our time where everything is qualification driven and parents feel under enormous pressure for their "prodigy" to be absolutely the best at absolutely everything.

I'm afraid I'm getting too old and not a little weary at times to deal with it all now. I can well understand how you feel for the child and recognise that if you move her on, she'll be taken to someone else. Sounds to me like a very frank conversation is needed with her parents (though they probably won't listen) if you are prepared to take the risk of her being removed from your lists.

If you think, for her sake, you should keep her on then I'd just produce the music you'd like her to play (plenty of variety) and tell her to get on with it. I'd give her achieveable and reasonable aims between lessons and make it quite clear you expect her to have done the work when she returns the next week. Sometimes children like this respond quite well (especially if its the way their parents manage them) to firm guidance. Of course be encouraging and pleasant but if she cannot tell you what she fancies trying, then you're going to have to tell her what she will play.

In a few years time she'll either have turned into an engaging musician who is enjoying her music or she'll be a really difficult teenager who refuses to do anything for anyone (parents included). At that point your role in her life will be quite clear if you have stayed the course until then. For now, I reckon you need to establish who's boss and direct her firmly or you need to say "goodbye". You know the student and I'm quite sure your instinct will tell you which it should be.

Hope it works out OK for you all.

OK... my son is 9 years old and has done grade 4 trumpet after under 2 years of learning. He is the dream pupil, he does his practice and is moving fast through the grades and has a huge repetoire.

He was 5 years old when he decided trumpet was what he wanted to play, after he heard the top local county Jazz band play. He said that he wanted to be in that one day. It was another 2.5 years before he got the front teeth to start learning. That is still his inspiration. After a term of lessons he managed to get into the lowest band, this term he has risen to the next band with all the intermediates (grade 5/6). He has 2 more bands before he gets to his goal.

Maybe she can go to band concert where there are children of her age playing band music. She doesnt have to play but sit in the trumpet section and watch to get a feel for the music ( it is very loud in this section) or in the audience if she wants The whole idea of joining an orchestra might be a bit daunting for her as she is still quite young.

Do you teach her privately, one to one at school or group tuition? If you are teaching her on her own maybe she thinks she is the only child that plays trumpet. Children are funny..... when my son was 5 and he had been playing the violin for 6 months I took him to a string ensemble. It was like opening a door to a new world. He couldnt believe how many other children played the violin and they were all like him. They all found bowing hard and it was a little scary but he loved it. He is 9 now and told his younger brother (6) last week that you will be scared when you go to the big hall but you wont want to miss out on being part of the group.

Maybe it isnt the music she doesnt like, she may not see the point of learning an instrument to please her parents or you. I have tried to explain to mine that when they grow up they might want to become a doctor, teacher, actor,computer programmer, something really good. To get there you probably have to go to college or university, to do that you need money to pay for books and lessons. Music might not be something you want to do when you grow up but it is a good hobby to meet other people.

This is my eldest favourite quote..... you can either work in Sainsburys all morning on the checkout earning £20-£30 or teach for an hour and get the same amount. But to teach you need to be very good and passed grade 8. Some children like the idea of lots of money to spend my eldest being one of them. He thinks he will get grade 8 by 12/13 and be earning lots of dosh !!:) enougb by 17 to get his own car. I havent said he wont so that is his aim on the trumpet anyway.

hope this helps a little. Glad to hear that you are trying to resolve this, sounds like someone has already given up on her once before since you only had her for 6 months.

That is so true Steve! I actually lost sleep worrying last night where I went wrong and what I could do to be more fun!

Even with lovely pupils, I tend to teach in my head before I sleep or even in the swimming pool... But then again I do this with any job I have, but I hope this will go away in time!

Hi Jazzywench
This 6 yr old is being a typical pain!. The more concerned you look at his saying 'boring', the more variety of pieces you play for him the more fun he is having winding you up. It is a pleasant way to pass the lesson and he doesn't have to do much actual work.
My suggestion is to give him a straightforward choice .. "this piece or that piece .. which one .. you decide now or I'll decide for you." Full stop If he wants to stop the piece the next week you say "No . we'll finish this one before another one."
Methinks he is having fun at your expense
Maybe this is one where the Mother should sit in on the lesson to see how hard you are working and what a pest he is being otherwise he'll probably tell her he doesn't want to learn as your lessons are boring

Yes, I agree!

One of the advantages of having been a private teaacher for more than 30 years is that there is little that I have not seen and experienced, in professional terms.

I have been able to develop strategies to deal with most things.

One of the reasons I am reluctant to take on the under 8's (girls) under 7's(boys) is that they are the most likely to be the bratty ones, especially the boys.

My strategy for dealing with potential bratyness involves my being able to pull out at any time.

At the first telephone contact I stress that I am not particularly good at relating to young children.

If the parent persists, I ask: how fluent is the child's reading - poor readers are unlikely to have the intellectual development to cope with my teaching method; can the child catch a ball - children unable to do this are unlikely to have the coordination to play the piano.

If the answer to either question is, "No" then that is the end of the story.

Where the conversation reaches the point when the parent has overcome my objections and doubts, I make the Killer Offer.

I will give the child 2 lessons. If I am happy to continue after that, then I shall expect payment for these lessons. If not, then they have been free 'consultations'.

My practice is happily free of tiny tiresomes

Steve

I have a pupil that answers with "don't know" to everything I suggest. She could really be quite good! We started on scales last week... I try to be enthusiastic but she still acts so bored!! I've decided until she decide what she wants I'll choose for her!

I wouldn't worry too much about it- I answered 'don't know' or just refused to speak to my teachers until I was about twelve. I was just shy, and didn't want to commit to playing a piece, and then decide later I didn't like it. Just remember that though they may appear bored, as I did, they might not be. I say just pick pieces until they decide they'd rather have their own choice

kkk

I've *always* been appalling at catching *anything* (except for colds...)

I've played musical instruments for most of my life.

I agree that better coordination helps, but I can't believe that not being able to catch a ball means you can't play the piano...

Yeh, i'm rubbish at catching, i have really bad hand-eye co-ordination, and can't play ball games like tennis or cricket, although i'm grade 7 on piano, and grade 8 on cello.

I composed a stroppy e-mail about this too. Though the whole tone of this message was arogant and particularly insulting to people (like me) who are very badly co-ordianated!!! However I deleted it (well edited out of existance) straight away after I'd looked at Steve's web site, it is actually much more encouaging there, says any one can acheive a resoonable standard f playing if they practise.

Yes, I have to take issue with you on this, Steve, because I was always absolutely rubbish at sports, and have terrible hand eye coordination for anything to do with catching and throwing. Playing an instrument is such a totally different skill, whether it uses a different part of the brain/ places different demands on concentration and coordination, I don't know. I find young children vary enormously in their readiness to start the piano- I have just started off my latest batch of year 1, 2 and 3 pupils at the school where I teach-actually I only have 1 five year old, a girl, who is doing beautifully-on the other hand, 1 8 year old boy who's just started I think is going to find finger coordination challenging. I think it depends so much on the child.

Didn't say that, Sarah. From over 30 years experience as a private teacher, I can tell you that lack of such coordination is not a good sign.

My asking about it is part of the strategy I have to avoid having to teach the (hopefully temporarily) unteachable or impossible braty; I recomend this strategy to other teachers. It is one of many I have developed over many years of teaching.

Steve

Thank you StuMac. Very kind of you to say so.

Sorry to anybody to whom my post caused unintended offence. It was intended to help teachers avoid taking on unpleasant pupils.

Let me make this plain. The ball to which is refer is a huge one thrown slowly to them with every non-threatening encouragement to do the best the child can do to catch it.

It does not include a tennis ball hit at them at lightening speed, or a cricket ball hit miles into the sky whilst they run in the opposite direction, or a baseball hurled at them by an all-American pro player.

After more than 30 years experience as a piano teacher, I can say that the inability to catch a huge ball thrown slowly to them with every non-threatening encouragement to do the best the child can do to catch it.

Hope this clarifies things

Steve

Sarah and jpiano

I am also a little hurt that you pick on the tiny part of my posting that does not suit you in order to criticize it.

The post was an attempt to offer to fellow teachers one of the solutions I have developed, to a horribly intractable problem that faces private instrumental\vocal teachers all the time.

I have been doing this for a long time. I have much experience here. Merely picking up on one part of the post suggests to me that you have not read it properly.

Steve

That last sentence should have been: After more than 30 years experience as a piano teacher, I can say that the inability to catch a huge ball thrown slowly to them with every non-threatening encouragement to do the best the child can do to catch it is a bad sign.

Steve

Hee hee, maybe I should just throw balls at my bratty kid and hope they hit him! 'whoops, missed again? Try THIS one.....'

*not advocating violence towards pupils in any way at all....*

Doubt whether I could even pick up a medicine ball these days

I have actually thought about the co-ordination issue a lot. I suspect one of the reasons I didn't do piano when I was young is that my co-ordination was so bad my parents probably thought I couldn't manage it! Steve H.'s web site actually says one of the advantages of playing a musical instrument is that it improves physical co-ordination.

There's no getting away from the fact that being well co-ordinated is an distinct plus when doing anything that involves both hands doing different things at the same time. However, I find that I can often stuggle getting my fingers around a piece, but that once I've got it, it's as if a different part of my brain takes over controlling my fingers.

I'm reminded of a film that used to be shown to medical students. It was about a woman who had been deaf from birth but communicated in sign language. She had a stroke that affected a part of her brain concerned with speach, and this messed up her abilty to use sign language, her hands were all over the place and she was just hoplessly unco-ordinated. The interesting point (and the reason the film was shown to students) was that the stroke had no affect her dexterity when she was using her hands to do 'normal' tasks (threading needles etc). She was just uncoordnated when using her hands to "speak".

I often feel that playing the piano is similar, poor co-ordination can kmake learning pieces more difficult, but it is not necessarily a problem once you're past that stage and your hands jsut respond to the music inside your head.

Well said.

Nooooooo really?

I used to be very bad at catching balls...then I started playing piano. It does help with co-ordination. Then I played rounders with my dad's friends, misjudged a catch and broke my little finger on my right hand

Moral of the story? If you want to be good at catching, practice as much as you do on piano. Either that, or give it up as a silly game and play piano instead

Steve: there's a medicine ball at the ICC in March

Then please spare a thought for a person who was so hurt and upset recently by a particular thread and some of the subsequent sly digs that she hasn't contributed to the forums since which is a shame as she had a lot of expertise and fun to share. You obviously now know what it feels like, including the feeling of people ganging up against you. I have a lot of respect for your own experience and expertise, which is considerable and which has helped me a lot over the months I've been on this forum, so I don't like doing this but felt I had to say something. So sorry Steve but please do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Preach over!! )

[quote=chocolatedog,Sep 20 2005, 06:49 PM]
[quote]I am also a little hurt that you pick on the tiny part of my posting that does not suit you in order to criticize it.
[/quote]

Steve, the fact that I only picked up on one part of your post -in a spirit of healthy debate, not criticism, is more likely to mean I agreed with the rest of it-not that I hadn't read it properly! Having read your post again, however, I guess the only other area I'd say my experience has been different in is ages of students-you honestly admit you're not comfortable with relating to very young pupils-I'm fine with teaching below 7 years, and I wouldn't personally put a blanket age below which students become harder to deal with-as I said in my last post, this varies so much between students. That's just my own personal experience which comes from teaching 5, 6 and 7 year olds over the years-if yours is different, that's fine- we all have our own areas we're most comfortable working with.

I misread your posting as picking up on a tiny part of the thread and criticizing this whilst ignoring the thrust of it. Many apologies.


My post was offering a strategy I have to avoid teaching brats; brats are not exclusively but in my experience mostly under 8 year old boys. It works. Not everybody will need it - you clearly do not.

I hope this does not sound condescending; carry on the great work with the under 7's. I have huge admiration for anybody comfortable and successful with them.

Steve

That's no use to me, SuzyMac. All I could do is look at it and think wistfully, "Once upon a time I could have thrown that at my friends."

Perhaps I could persuade Freddie to lift if for me

Steve

I'm not altogether convinced that it's healthy for anyone involved in teaching children of any age to use a word like "brats" so freely.

I'm sure Steve doesn't have any malicious intent . How about children with short attention spans, no self motivation and a poor attitude? It's just a little wordy though, I guess.

I believe my mother refers to them outside of the classroom as 'toads', and reserves for them the special treat of sitting on the desk right at the front of the class, immediately next to hers.

Matters not to me what they are called. I have a great strategy to avoid taking them on in the first place

Steve

You are a private teacher, all you have to say is "I do not teach young children". There is no need for a "strategy".

There are all sorts of circumstances where this is harder to achieve than you might imagine. Just off the top of my head:

- enquiry from a parent who knows a young child I am teaching successfully.
- enquiry from a parent who starts the conversation with a mass of praise for my reputation.
- enquiry from a parent who absolutely insists that their child is way in advance of his years.

Plus, in common with many others, I am a softie. 'No' is the hardest word I ever have to say.

I posted my strategy so that anyone wanting it can use it. Nobody has to; it is entirely their choice.

Steve

quite right, YAP. I have a sense of humour, too

it was not in any way intended to be a case of picking on you Steve - I just found it a very weird thing to suggest that a child who couldn't catch a ball would struggle with playing the piano, given that i couldn't (and still can't) catch balls in general.

Large soft ball thrown softly obviously is a darn site easier to catch. That wasn't clear from your post.

I should hope that anyone who reads a quarter of my posts on here should be aware I'm unlikely to be trying to get at you, and I'm not generally one to wilfully misunderstand either - I just found it a weird thing to say and didn't agree with it until you clarified it.

You can have difficulty catching a ball for more than one reason. In my teens, I was well below average at catching a cricket ball, and subsequently discovered that I was short-sighted in one eye, while the other focused reasonably well. This meant that I had difficulty judging distances. I wasn't an outstanding pianist, but one myopic eye was not the reason.

Actually, Sarah, I would have gone back and removed the 'little hurt' bit were I able. One of the problems with being moderated was that the 'edit' facility appeared to to have disappeared. It is hard to imagine you ever having this problem

So, no hard feelings. We are still in each others' gangs.

Steve

lol...


*grin*

Goodgood

I was always a bit rubbish at ball games too; it turns out that it isn't normal to see double when looking anywhere but straight forwards with ones eyes. No-one told me that so I didn't think to mention it .

I only found out when I was 8 that it wasn't normal. Still didn't help me, though, as I still see two balls with no depth perception so I don't know how far away they are or which one to catch. PE teachers still tried to make me head a football though . My piano teacher let me start playing at 6 - she usually waits until 7 but my sister had started to have lessons, and I was copying what she was doing at home so she thought I must be ready for it .

Should anyone involved in teaching young children be using a word like 'balls' quite so freely? The last page now appears to be a load of balls.

Getting worried. (Attempts to click 'worried' icon, but it's not working)

How else can you describe a ball? A round thing that bounces and you can have big ones and small ones?

Now going to put on that AC/DC song!!!!

Just looked up the description in the dictionary.

Please will everyone now refer to a ball as " a round or roundish object of a size suitable for use in various games" or " a solid nonexplosive projectile for a firearm or cannon" or " a lavish or formal social function for dancing".

Much easier to say "Ball" I think

BALLS!

Are we restricted to playing with our own balls or can we play with others' balls as well?

Steve

Do you mean in an educational or purely pleasureable context,Steve?

Another story comes to mind ...

Scene - courtroom. Long and not very interesting case. Judge keen to get a verdict, wind things up, and get back to his golf / whisky / whatever.

A note from the defence lawyer is passed to the judge. Wearily he reads it, and looks up with a frown on his face.

"Who is Round ? and why does he object??"