I'm considering joining the host of other adult learners in taking up the Grade 1 challenge.

Bearing in mind I already play the violin and viola professionally, the cello, oboe and clarinet to around diploma level and the flute to grade 6, plus dabbling in the piano (for necessity rather than choice), what should I learn and take my Grade 1 on.

When throwing your ideas into the arena, please spare a thought for storage and transportation. Whilst the harp would be a nice idea, I do don't live in a big house and there are other occupants to think of. I can't imagine them taking kindly to a 'naked piano' obscurring their view of the TV.

Apart from that, other no-nos are saxaphone (just not my scene), tuba, trombone or trumpet. While I have nothing against brass instruments per se, the space I have to practice in is very small which can lead to serious damage to hearing - not a good thing for a professional violinist.

Over to you folks............

Tuned percussion?

Or....dare I suggest...singing?

Cheers

Katyjay

What would be most use to you???

Could you consolidate your piano "dabbling"?, and if you are already grade 1 ish do the Grade 2 (or 3??) challenge instead

Tuned percussion............hmmm, now that's something different and original...but also expensive. Don't think you can hire tuned percussion for a reasonable price?

Singing...had considered, but would being a bit hayfeverish/blocked sinuses pose a problem.

Piano, although not my first choice of instrument, would possibly be useful. The main issue; lack of room at home - even for a digital piano.

Since I already play the oboe, I had thought of bassoon. Though it would have to be a 'short reach' instrument as my hands are small (katyjay will back me up there! )

Not too bad a problem - I've survived another summer (see my "Hayfever" thread on Viva Voice if you really want all the distasteful details ) and the sneezy season's nearly over .

You may well find the bassoon tricky - I had trouble reaching and my hands are bigger than yours.

Cheers

Katyjay

Harps don't have to be that large; most beginners do not start out on a 6 foot contraption and if it is the one you think a nice idea why not look further at it. I like www.pilgrimharps.co.uk and they are very small for their range (just over 1m)- worth asking if they have a hire one with screw in legs for an adult- and the harps are easy to pick up and tuck in a corner, under the bed (in its case) or anywhere else.

Guitar - has to be. Don't need a lot of space, isn't too loud so won't damage your hearing as well!

Storage and transportation a piece of cake. They are cheap as well. You can get a basic classical guitar that will do you just fine for £120-150.

Good luck

Segovia

The Schreiber 'short reach' version is apparently suitable for children from the age of about 10 upwards. Left thumb has lots of work to do, but there's usually a shortage of bassoon players so I'm likely to find wind ensembles with vacancies.



Had a look at the website and they recommend the Progress pedal harp as being a good entry instrument for adult learners. They do hire and hire purchase too.

"Screw in legs for an adult" - this some way of making me taller?!

Harp or singing are looking like the two front runners at the moment......

You can also learn lever harp (Clarsach); they tend to be smaller than pedal harps.

Harp is a great instrument - really hard to make a nasty sound on it!

Plus, you can encourage me to work for my grade 1...

I'm trying to get myself excited about the recorder... I DO enjoy it, I just can't get enthralled about the idea of working at it. I wish I knew someone who had a French Horn I could borrow, that is more inspiring to me!

I wanted to do grade 1 as well, and I did it in singing last year. I enjoyed it so much that I did grade 4 a year later and got an identical mark! (127)

Guitar is a good idea too - I tried that one, but found it really difficult!

Encourage each other. I need a kick up the rear to get going at the moment. I just know I'll keep putting it off otherwise.



For me, I just know I couldn't get enthralled about working at playing the piano, no matter how useful the skill would be. It's not an instrument that really does a huge amount for me.

French horn...now you're talking That's definitely inspiring. Need to practice with a mute though - protect the hearing!! Also transportable without a vehicle. I'd imagine nasty sounds would be high on the list to begin with.....

Well, after a lesson with AmandaL last night I had my first try-this-at-home session this afternoon . I hadn't realised how loud a violin is in the house (or how much the sound carried outside) . And it turns out the parrot next door doesn't like it

I think it can be summed up thus:

Neighbours horrified as Chartered Accountant goes on fiddle.


Cheers

Katyjay

(ps this is in no way Amanda's fault - she was heroically patient with me yesterday, just my basic lack of knowledge and ability)

You're on! lol... I have had the pieces for grade one harp for over a year and have practiced about half a dozen times. It's terrible! I'll get there one day. Get my flute exam out of the way first, I suppose.


Yes, that's the problem isn't it? If you aren't excited about the possibilities of an instrument, it's so much harder to make yourself really do the work.


I'd imagine it'd probably sound GRIM to start with! lol... that is I suppose one of the benefits of recorders - if you actually care about the sound you are making, it's fairly easy to sound OK. It's not a sound I'm especially fond of though, even when played by the experts.

French horn is more a wish than a likelihood! I don't think I even know anyone who plays it, (except on here) let alone has a spare one... I would definitely work to get a good grade 1 though, and even if I could only ever play simple stuff reasonably well that'd be great.


Oh dear!





I've played the violin for a long time and heard many beginner violinists over the years - it's fairly normal to sound hopelessly vile at the start, so don't worry! It isn't you. Only a very few times have I known people really get on and make a nice sound quickly - and the most extreme example of that now studies viola at RCM! I'm sure you'll get there with time, and you have the ear and the sense of pitch for it which will help a lot, even if it probably also means you'll be more frustrated when it's sounding a bit naff...

Keep practicing!! Little and often. You'll notice the quickest improvement that way.

A heavy rubber practice mute will be a big help in 'turning down the volume' while practicing at home. I'll email you some websites that sell them. Metal mutes are even better, but they can be a bit on the heavy side

Thanks Amanda. I'll add it to my shopping list

I have one of those metal ones... it makes a vast amount of difference, but you're right about the weight: you wouldn't think a couple of ounces of metal would feel that heavy when you're already holding a violin or viola, but it makes a big difference.

How about:
Grade 1 Conductor: just wave your arms around, should be easy
Grade 1 Composer: three chords and you're there

Both can be done in a small space and generate no noise to annoy...

OK, being more serious, I'd say French Horn would definitely be worth looking at further. Lots of good original repertoire, varied performance opportunities, and a lovely sound. Having learnt trombone, I know as I was envious!

There are some physical characteristics which are preferable, i.e. straight even teeth without overbite, normal shape lips (neither too fleshy or too thin), though there are almost certainly players outside this norm.

The main horn shop in London is Paxman's, http://www.paxman.co.uk/ , and if you select Horn Centre -> Second Hand Horns you will see what they have on offer. They may not do rental but might have a buy-back option.

In terms of noise, there's no risk to your hearing really, the way the instrument is held means sound "comes out the back" and if you put a few cushions or suchlike behind you then it will damp the sound greatly.

The first couple of months or so on a brass instrument are the hardest as the muscles in the embouchure ache as they develop, but this passes.

Enjoy!

If your short on space?
Have a go with the mongolian nose flute..
I am told the carrying case is reasonably inexpensive and easy to get in your car boot..

Storini, or indeed anyone else who knows, what's the deal with the "full double" vs "compensating" horns...

Tempted to save up (oh my, as if I don't have enough instruments already...) if it's possible to get one for £500-ish, but don't know whether one would regret a compensating horn as opposed to a full double.

Long term project anyway, no way I can afford one at the mo...

Looking it up, I found:
http://www.brass-forum.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2...?num=1103907273
and
http://www.hornplanet.com/hornpage/museum/...n_history1.html (read through to page four)
I'm not sure I'd be too concerned, as you would probably upgrade to a different instrument model after a few years anyway.

P.S. Another advantage of the horn is you get to drink lots of beer, purely for rehydration purposes of course

Thanks for the help very useful pages, esp the 2nd.

I don't like beer...

Well I guess I'll start saving... the only decision is what to buy first, an alto flute or a French horn *laughs*... either will take a good few years to afford I think!

I've been checking out the Brittens/Boosey & Hawkes option of hiring and purchasing at the same time.

They offer a Besson 'double' french horn in either F or Bb (I'd go for the F) for £75 per month and it's paid off and becomes yours in 24 months.

I don't have weird shaped teeth, an underbite or lips that are either thin or thick, so I think I'd be safe there.

Another option I've been browsing this weekend is the double-bass. I just love playing 'The Elephant' from Saint-Saens Carnival of the Animals, but the cello doesn't really do the piece justice - sounds a bit too light weight....baby elephant like. The work itself is Grade 5 on the double-bass, but at Grade 1, one of the works in list B is the solo from the third movement of Mahler 1. (Let's you get right into the orchestral repertoire from the first day).

I believe the double-bass is also an endangered species, and there are usually vacancies in amateur orchestras for them.

I thought double horns were in both keys? lol... I guess I need to do some more research if I ever do decide to go for it...


The Elephant is brilliant!

Wow, that really is getting you going quick isn't it?

Errr, now you got me thinking. Just off to check.............


......I think you may be right. Probably the way they've worded it. It says F/Bb

There's also a 'half double' French horn F/Bb, but I'm not sure what a half-double is?

Enlightenment, any FH players out there?

For the horn, I would guess the "half-double" is the same as "compensating".

From what I've read, I'd speculate that playing double bass would be somewhat incompatible with playing the violin at a high level. On the ICS cello forums, there's a poster called "cellobass" who learnt cello after bass, and he claims that playing those two instruments is not compatible: basically, the left hand finger patterns, spacing, and pressures involved are similar but different, and this complication is highly confusing to the brain.

Amanda, the two links Storini posted above were really interesting/useful/informative. I am guessing also that half double would be another name for compensating, as from what I've read for the compensating ones, they have more tubing than a single and can do more notes etc like a double, but instead of basically one whole horn in F and one whole horn in Bb, you have a horn in... Bb I think... and then it has extra tubing for F so that when you play in F you're using the Bb tubing plus some. Whereas for a double horn you use an entirely different set of tubing.

Did that make ANY sense??!

ps, this is what I gathered from the two sites posted... they made more sense than I probably just did, so do read them *grin*

The first book anyone interested in the horn should buy is the Yehudi Menuhin Music Guide to the Horn, written by Barry Tuckwell: http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/0201878/details.html - excellent in all respects.

I was thinking of what great works there are using the horn, particularly in the Austro-German tradition, and the list just goes on and on. The following are must-hears:
Bruckner: 4th Symphony, "The Romantic"
R.Strauss: 1st and 2nd Horn Concertos
R.Strauss: Eine Alpensymphonie
Britten: Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings

Richard Strauss's deep understanding of the instrument surely came the sounds he heard as a child at home as his father, Franz, a horn player in the Munich court orchestra, practiced the works of the composers performed there. Prominent amongst these were those of Weber and Wagner, all of whose operas have wonderful horn parts.

Sounds good to me.

Horns come in a large number of different designs, and nearly all of them cover all the range that you would need up to about Grade 6 or 7. Some milestones in their history:

16th to early 18th C - one-piece, therefore only capable of the harmonic series in one key (often D or Eb)

mid-18th C - crooks between mouthpiece and body, to allow variation of length and therefore basic key. Horns of this type become regular members of the Classical orchestra, usually two, occasionally four.

18th C (probably, exact date not known) - players use right hand in bell to obtain extra pitches and tune the notes of the harmonic series that don't occur in the conventional scale. This technique is used widely by soloists, sparingly by orchestral players.

late 18th C - cor solo invented, without end crooks, but with tuning crooks of different lengths inserted into the body tubing.

Early 19th C - right hand adjustment becomes more widespread.

1820 to 1835 - valves invented, both rotary and piston variety, allowing rapid insertion and removal of extra tubing. Three of these give full chromatic range. Orchestral horns still have end crooks, and composers still expect players to use them in addition to the valves.

1898 Kruspe markets the first double horn. A more satisfactory design followed in 1900. The double horn is based on the cor solo, with mouthpipe fixed to the body.

During the 20th C, horn designs have multiplied prolifically. The standard full double has a length with all valves open (i.e. not depressed) that gives the F harmonic series. Depressing the thumb lever diverts the air flow to give the Bb above. Whichever path the airflow takes, it goes through the finger valves once, and dperessing a finger valve inserts extra tubing of a length appropriate to the thumb valve position. The effect is to flatten the note by a tone (1st valve) a semitone (2nd valve) or a minor third (3rd valve). A compensating horn also has a thumb valve that changes the basic length from F to Bb, but now while the airflow on the Bb side is routed through the finger valves once, as above, on the F side it goes through twice. The two added portions add up to the same length as the F side of the corresponding valve on a full double.

Other designs that have become available during the last 50 years:

Bb and F alto - all valves open gives a Bb horn; thumb valve down gives the F above.

Bb single - these are available with three, four and five valves. The first extra thumb valve usually comes with two lengths of slide, one used for hand stopping, because none of the finger valves on a Bb horn is the right length to adjust for the pitch change, the other giving the length of the F horn. The five-valve single has both these lengths.

Beginners are often advised to start on a compensating horn in F and Bb. The danger with a single Bb is that it does not encourage the player to develop a good sound. Compensators are lighter than full doubles, and can be very good instruments.

Horn students need horn specialist teachers. The horn is unlike the other brass instruments, partly in its in-built character, partly in its very different history, to the extent that few generalists can give the whole picture, and it is easy for a beginner to get into bad habits, especially with his/her embouchure.

If you want to practise the horn quietly, you can use a mute with an electronic system by Yamaha, called Silent Brass, that damps the external sound to almost zero, but allows you to hear what you are doing through earphones. The price is somewhere over £100, I believe.

Hmmmm,......I would argue the point a bit there. How come I can switch freely between the cello and violin without any problems? The difference in fingering between those two instruments is even greater than between the cello and double-bass.

On the violin, the fingering is the bog-standard 1-2-3-4 with various extensions of each when required, but on the cello there's three basic finger patterns: 1-3-4 or 1-2-4 and sometimes 1-ext2-4. Using a wrong digit there results in the player being an entire semi-tone out.

I have never once got fingerings confused and personally I can't imagine how it would even be possible to get them confused, they are such different instruments. Maybe it's because I took up the violin as a child and didn't take up the cello until 12 years later. The fingering patterns for both instruments are so hard-wired into my head I don't even have to think about it. The only 'problem', for want of a better word, on the double bass, is remembering that the strings are tuned in 4ths to compensate for the fact that in first position you can only play an open string, plus two more notes before having to move up to the next open string.

Which leads me to an interesting bit of trivia:
The portion of the brain that controls fine motor actions in the left hand is larger in the brains of those playing bowed string instruments. This is due to the amount of hand and muscle memory that is developed to enable string players to feel their way around the fingerboard and play with good intonation.