Hi
How many of you teachers out there are getting this excuse time and time again. "I couldn't practise the piano this week because I had too much homework from school."
How do you go about explaining to them that their practise is just as important as their homework. Many of them wouldn't dream about going to an English lesson without having their homework to hand in, and yet in music lessons it seems to be ok to have excuses.
I would like your views and comments on this topic as I'm getting a bit fed up but don't quite know how to tackle it!!!
Thanks in advance
TRBRO

Yep, it happens to me all the time. I could rant on for the next 5 hours about it but I wont. Needless to say, school homework and the school curriculum in general has encroached more and more on my private teaching over the past couple of years. My concern is that learning an instrument, which to me is "THE" most important activity for human development and discipline, seems to take a back seat to all the other activities and masses of homework of dubious value. Thats all I'll say on the matter.

Gae

I hear this all the time too,even from kids at primary. Yet they find the time to watch telly,play out and have loads of other activities. It's all a load of rubbish.

You will get used to hearing excuses,some outrageous and not outrageous. They make me laugh sometimes.

For some kids, sure, it's a load of tosh, but I do have more sympathy these days, children seem to get a lot of homework even from an early age, and when they are pressurised by school teachers to do well and get good marks in school, inevitably it's the outside school activities which will suffer.

I never worry about this. They have practised or they haven't. Sometimes life just gets in the way. Sometimes they have been lazy. All perfectly normal.

Steve

I try and gently remind my lot that piano practice is part of their homework and is also really good for de-stressing. Having said that, if they haven't practiced, they know it, I know it, there's no point in getting cross.

Oh yes they would, aty least I used to when I was at school!!!

I wouldn't haved dared to not practise, homework or not, but that's just me. I do hear this excuse a lot, but at least they feel that they can tell me they haven't practised, instead of pretending they have and then playing me rubbish! At least if you know, you can concentrate on things which don't require them to have practised. This week, one girl had a lesson on scales which she found useful, and another had a lesson on sight reading and aural.

Last year I had a boy in Year 4 (aged 8) who wanted a break from piano after a year, even though he was talented and doing really well. He says he's going to go back to it, but that he can't manage to practise the piano AND do his homework each day (at his school they get 20-30 minutes of homework each night at that age). I was surprised - but I told his dad that if the child can't cope with homework and learning an instrument now, he would find it even harder in the future. If possible, I like to get a regular practise routine established while they are still at primary school, because later on they will find out what lots of homework REALLY means!

I would remind students to practise, and would discuss with their parents. But if they still not to show any improvements, oh well, thx for paying me to supervise your practise!!

Matthew

I don't know about laughing! I had one girl today say she couldn't practice this wekk as they moved house on Tuesday, and they couldn't find the piano, or something. They couldn't find which room it was in or it was maybe still on the removal lorry..........(You would have thought that a piano was rather a large piece of furniture to lose..... ) Or maybe it's a really massive house...............

One difficulty I found as a child in piano lessons, was the weeks I had faithfully practiced my teacher used to whinge and tell me I hadn't done enough, weeks when I hadn't practiced a lot she used to say things like "see, isn't it better when you've done your practice?" - it didn't encourage me to practice....

sorry guys hope you dont mind me gatecrashing your forum.

Id just like to say as a student it is very frustrating the amount of homework we get.

Its not only the time taken to do homework that hampers practise, its the energy wasted in homework and in school.

If i had the energy when i come home from school, i would practice all night...but the school day is so tiring.

Another thing is when parents encourage people to learn an instrument, then tell them they have to do work first.....thankfully my mum isnt very strict about this....but ive seen it and its a waste of time - whats the point in learning an instrument if its at the bottom of priorities?

OK. Rant Over
scott

yes we do get a lot of homework sometimes 5 peices a night at my school(although not often usualy 2-3) thats up to 50 a fortnight (again usualy 20-30 but thats still a lot of homework)not that i do all of it (last year i did 5 RE homeworks because the bag of an RE teacher would mark my work constantly with Es and Ds because of my handwriting but its not my fault i have dispraxia albeit a mild form[a reason i will never be able to play piano]but it still affects my handwriting using a knife and fork tying my shoelaces etc etc so anyway i just stopped doing them she didnt even care never siad anything about it at all shes left now anyway)i must stop using brackets so extensively (i drifted off topic again something else i shoudnt do[must stop using brackets and drifting off topic])

I met someone at a flute course who had dyslexia and dyspraxia and is now studying at Guildhall on the flute and did Grade 8 on piano. I don't know much about dyspraxia, but I thought this might be encouraging

Back on topic. Ok fair enough, when a student uses the homework excuse because they haven't been bothered to practice to be a bit cross. But, I sometimes get hours of homework to do, an sometimes the last thing you want to do after spending 6 hours at school, 2 hours doing homework is to then have to do some serious practice. For instance, now at A Level, I am usually so tired by 8 o'clock at night, and this is because I have had school, then have to go over everything I learnt that day, so I don't forget it. Also, there is a mass of pressure on us for exams and things in school, and plus we only have this chance at education once, sometimes, when it comes to one or the other the schoolwork is the priority.

I went to a grammar school in the 90s where we were supposedly given 1 hour of homework per night from the first year, rising to 2 hours in our GCSE year. Quite honestly, if you were at all conscientious (which I was) you would easily do twice as much as that, and often have to work all weekend too. But I managed to practise, because I was desperate to! At busy times I had to alternate the instruments (clarinet, piano and viola at the time) between the different days of the week, but I'd never go to my piano lesson without putting in 2-3 hours a week because my teacher was such an old dragon - she'd know, and she'd make me cry! (She got good results though) It helped that my sister always got up late in the mornings and was slow getting ready for school - I often had 15 or 20 minutes before school where I could squeeze in some music while I was waiting for her! When I was about 16 and working for grade 8 clarinet, I just got up a bit earlier to do half an hour on scales before breakfast, and did my pieces between bits of homework in the evenings. My scales were terrible so I really did need to do that much! So although it's tough in secondary school, I don't really buy the excuse that younger children (primary school age especially) can't find or make time to practise. It's a matter of priorities. I happen to know that my 8-year-old pianist who dropped out still manages to fit football and TV into his hectic schedule!

Yes, I have noticed homework cropping up as a reason they haven't practiced more over the last few years-even at primary school kids seem to be under more pressure. The thing I really try to stress to my students is that 'little and often' can help with practice-and even if they only have a few minutes on a particular night, not to think it isn't worth bothering-all those few minutes add up. I also suggest they use practice as a short break in between homework. No, it's not ideal, but ever increasing homework seems to be something that increasingly is becoming a feature of school-that together with the loads of activities some of them do. That said, I do find with a few of my student that it's use of time and planning that needs a bit of guidance, especially with those who are very short of time-and we do spend time putting together a (realistic) practice timetable based on what they can really do, not what they'd do in an ideal world, and really spelling out exactly what needs to be done in even a short practice session. And at the end of the day, I feel if I can keep them playing, in amongst all the million and one other competing things they could be doing instead, that's the most important thing.

Ellie

You have summed this up very well.

Many pupils...who have somehow got through GCSEs etc despite so much coursework...usually give up after the first year of A levels. In my humble experience they gain grade 7 in their first year provided they ORGANISE their workload.

It is the very few that manage somehow even when sitting their A levels that gain Grade 8. I find it impossible to find the time to get them on to a diploma,because they then go off to Uni.

How is it that a pupil can sit their grade 8 ( high merit ) and still find the time to sit FIVE A levels and then get into Oxford?

Balls.....

And you lot whinging about coursework. Try this...I have done it.

Get up at 6am every morning ( forget lying in bed at weekends...housework,washing,dusting,keeping kid occupied )...get kid to school ( I only had my eldest at the time )...college...another degree course....get back...work...pick kid up....get them to bed...then do homework usually till 2am...up at 6 etc.

You catch my drift?

Yes, I had a really promising student for a couple of years who passed grade 6 saxophone with distinction at the beginning of his AS year. We decided to skip grade 7 and work for grade 8, but unfortunately his 5 A levels took over in the end.

I had to work so hard for my grade 8 because I did it the term after my grade 7. I took both in the lower 6th because I had to have grade 8 before I applied to university. That's why I made sure I fitted in the practise, even though I was taking AS maths at the same time (in 1994/5 we still took most of our exams after two years, but not maths). But I did keep it up during my A level year too, and concentrated particularly hard on piano and viola that year, to get grade 5 and 4, again for university. It's possible that all this music compromised my A level results a bit (BBB, was predicted AAB) but once I found out that my favourite university required me to get Bs and Cs the pressure was off slightly anyway... it was just as important that I got the music grades, especially on the clarinet and piano.

I'm not sure if piano-boy will return after Christmas or not, but to be honest if he can't take the pace of piano AND homework in year 4, I'm not sure he ever will. A lot depends on how much you really want to do it.

Embarassingly enough, I've heard, second-hand, that my teacher uses me as an example to her pupils whenever they complain they've had too much homework. She really doesn't tolerate people not practising and launches into a spiel about how I 'had time to get five A-levels and get a distinction in grade 8 piano the day after his A-levels finished'.

Some people have the ability to get five A Levels on very little work, or have masses of energy and are able to put in the serious amounts of work required.

Some people have serious amounts of time and/or talent to get to grade 8 with good marks whilst doing all their academic work and getting to that level before they leave school.

Some don't.

Saying "This person got this and that and still managed to do this too" and using that as a reason EVERYONE (or even most people!) should be able to do it, is plain ridiculous. Just because one person can do it does not mean that everyone is able to.

You managed a hectic schedule of your own plus kids. Good for you, that's a huge achievement. It doesn't mean that other people could cope with that schedule on 4 hours sleep, and it doesn't mean that others shouldn't have problems fitting in all the stuff they are expected to manage at school or college AND find time (sometimes more importantly ENERGY) to practice as much as they or their teachers would like them to.

I know some kids who struggled and worked hard to PASS 8 GCSEs, never mind get good grades, and others who with very little work achieved 10 or more good grades. Everyone is different. We don't say that those who had to work really hard just to pass are lazy just because their results weren't as good, do we? I got 8 As and 2 A*s at GCSE and ABBD at A Level despite being in recovery from ME and doing frankly not nearly as much work as I should have. I'm clever - I'm grateful! I got to do orchestras and things because I could cope without heaving a massive workload onto myself. I don't sit around and say how lazy people are who can't find the time to do several orchestras a week during A Levels...

Not to mention the fact that even in the few short years since I left school, or even since younger friends have left school, pressure has increased a LOT, and now even primary school kids are pressured with SATs etc, and schools pushing them to get better marks for the sake of league tables.

"Too much homework" may not be the best excuse for not doing enough practice, but making a blanket assumption that the people who say it must be lying is ridiculous and foolish.

You also need to take into account that not every music student WANTS to make their playing a priority when they are choosing what is important: if you don't want pupils who treat their playing as a lower priority than homework (or even television) then fine, don't teach them. There will always be those for whom music practice is their last priority: it's their life, after all. They are paying you to give them lessons, not to rearrange their priorities.

Dear Sarah

I know you and I are in the "different camps" so to speak,but I'm getting rather tired of your nit picking and condescending replies to my postings.

As for my achievement in juggling my hectic schedule,it is not an acheivement at all and I certainly was not boasting about it...far from it,I HAVE to do it. I don't want to.I have no option. End of story.

You say " "Too much homework" may not be the best excuse for not doing enough practice, but making a blanket assumption that the people who say it must be lying is ridiculous and foolish. "

In reply to the rest of your posting I say the same to you. Ridiculous and foolish.

I won't respond to any of your postings,so I would appreciate the same by you.

Thankyou!

I did it in the 80's - got my grade 8 piano (distinction), ARCM performing diploma (piano), 4 A levels (won't say the grades - you'll just accuse me of bragging!) and got into Cambridge to read music (4th term entry not 7th term as was much more the norm in those days.) Unlike a lot of school pupils these days I didn't have a job, I just had to be extremely disciplined about my use of time in the evenings and at weekends (and I was at junior school at RNCM all day Saturdays aswell) so life was literally all practice and homework. It's possible - hard work, but possible.

Chill out, guys. Let's not let this descend into anything unpleasant.

Remember everyone is different. I'm sure I irritated the ###### out of most of my classmates, being able to spend not a lot of time on homework and still get good grades. I did have other priorities - I was involved in the musical, had a job, went to the football every week, and played piano and F horn. I'm sure if I struggled with homework, then something would have had to give. I also had quite a lot of time in hospital in my GCSE years, so was constantly playing catch-up in class. I was at an advantage as I didn't find it really hard.

I do however appreciate that my students are all individuals, and some of them may, and others may not, be able to do it all. I also know that piano progress is not top of the priority list. I don't cite me or anyone else as an example of what could be done, I let my students be themselves. They are all aware that, generally, more work will see them progress quicker, but it is all about balance and priorities, and they are very personal and individual things.

Semele, I wasn't intending to be condescending or nit picking. I do think that your schedule is an achievement whether you have to do it or not - I know that I couldn't, and many others couldn't. *sighs* oh well. Never mind. I quoted your post because it was something you said which prompted my response, (because frankly I don't understand how anyone can get 5 A Levels and do well instrumentally and have the energy to live afterwards can manage it) but the post wasn't intended in any way to be aimed at you or getting at you... it was a response to this thread in general. I'm sorry if it came across as a personal attack or something: I certainly didn't intend it to. But fair enough, I shan't respond to your posts in future if you don't want me to.

CD: obviously it IS possible... not for everyone though. And some of those who *could* do it, don't want to! My point is that for some kids "too much homework" is a genuine excuse. For some people homework isn't that hard and doesn't take up masses of their time - or they decide to make music practice a priority... others maybe they make TV watching a priority, I don't know! For others, homework takes twice as long as it should, and they find it exhausting. Music practice gets shelved as there's only so much time between getting home from school, and going to bed. The thing is, it's their choice where their priorities lie... I know that if I have music lessons, I want to get the best out of them, but not all instrumental students even care that much. And those who do may not have the time or energy to practice as much as they would like to or want to. Assuming that they're just lazy or don't care seems terribly unfair to me. You only have to look at students like Nicki (who quite obviously isn't lazy and does care, and yet when she has finished all her school stuff doesn't always feel she has motivation and energy to practice) to see that.

SuzyMac: you said it better than I did but yes, exactly. Everyone's different. For some kids "too much homework" is rubbish and generally both the teacher and the student know that. But for some it's a genuine dilema. "I'm sure if I struggled with homework, then something would have had to give" - yes, exactly... I was lucky too, in that homework (once I'd got somewhat better from the ME) wasn't usually that hard, and to be honest it was probably spending as much time as I "should" have done studying and revising that "gave" if anything did - because that was what I could most easily get away with.

I don't think saying "so & so did this and that and still managed to practice" is constructive at all: those who don't care will think "so?" and those who do care but are lacking time, energy or simply the talent to match those achievements can end up having their self-confidence bashed just because they don't match up with the star pupil.

Sorry Sarah, it was in reply to Semele's post, more just to agree with you that it IS possible - yes, I agree not everyone can, but I was (maybe misguidedly) taking Semele's post as meaning she doesn't believe that it is possible. (Sorry Semele if that's not what you meant.)

Thankyou everyone for your views, it seems I've sparked an interesting debate!
I know some of my students are being honest when they use the excuse, but I also know that some of them are lying and just couldn't be bothered to practice. The thing is, how long do you go on putting up with this? I sometimes think the same as Steve who said it's fine if the parents are prepared to pay you basically to supervise their practice, but when it happens time and time again it gets rather annoying!

I think the problem is the shift of attitude to putting pressure on students in school to pass exams. Previously if someone was destined to get anything other than an A with a certain reasonable amount of work then thats exactly what they did, get something other than an A. Now students are pushed so hard and tried to be made to work harder, so that a lot of the ones that would have got B now get an A, C to B etc.; the same achievements can be made by either hard work or natural aptitude (and, of course, in a balance between both). This puts a lot of pressure on the students; not to mention sets them up for a harder time at university having to keep up the same amount of work to keep up. The really able students aren't pushed to struggle any more (maybe even less, these are the ones that can do grade 8 during A-levels no trouble) but the requirement for everyone to succeed means that anyone who will not easily breeze through with straight As is worked much harder than ever, rather than being allowed to get a B....

I managed to get four grade As at A-level and also do 15 hours of training/coaching per week for gymnastics: the day before my final A-level chemistry exams, I was at gymnastics, not sitting revising; yet people in year 8 weren't there because they had too much homework for them to cope with. Some people just can't take the time to do these things, they need to work hard and not do these things to get the grades that they're being pushed to get/told they can get, by doing all this homework. In many ways making sure that everyone can have the same opportunities and achieve the same regardless of any natural/parental headstart they have, is not so much helping them to achieve greater things; but working them into the ground and causing them stress. Some people obviously have to make the choice of whether they want to sacrifice other things for achievement, if they do then we should respect that.

It's also, in many cases, flawed to assume that instrumental practice is as important to people as homework. This in itself is an individual thing to some people it will be, whether it be because it's their main pleasure in life and that's what they do to relax; or because they want to study music and/or turn it into a job. I guess music teachers, though, will often see things from the perspective of those who want to take music further/love it so much because that's what they did. However, if someone wants to make it into medical school and isn't capable of that without a huge amount of work then surely instrumental practice is far less important, but they may not want to give up their hour/half hour per week with their teacher if they enjoy it, why not cater for these people? Just about everything else can be done 'for fun' but music seems to be progress or nothing, if people aren't practising but are still turning up then they must be enjoying just playing, not necessarily progressing.

I also actually wonder how well music teachers know how much practice their students are doing, I bet YAP's teacher would be quite shocked if she knew how little he was doing a lot of the time, but because he was naturally good at piano he could pull off very little practice and still make good headway. I'd hypothesise that those who have to work hard at school to achieve may often (not always) be those who have to work harder on their instruments to achieve, so they get a doubly hard deal!

I do agree, however, that the excuse of too much homework is one that a lot of children have latched on to as being the one the teacher can't complain about. It will quite often be used as a lie to cover up laziness, and this is not on, I guess that is what this topic was originally about. The teacher just has to somehow find out if the child is genuinely a very hard worker and does have this much work to do; or the child isn't conscientious with their homework either (or doesn't need to be) in which case the situation is different.

I'm very tolerant of the "too much homework" excuse if I know the child struggles at school, or has to work hard, or is 14 or 16 or sitting A level exams (or at another age where coursework and exams have to take precedence). I'm not so tolerant if I know they're just being lazy, or they are 8 and claim to have too much homework, when I know they have time to play football, go to cubs and play on the playstation! I also realise it's just a hobby to a lot of them. Fortunately, most are honest enough to tell me when they haven't practised and I don't usually get cross, I just do other things with them instead.

Incidentally, I had to work really hard at school, but I practised hard too. That's because I really WANTED to.

This was me!! I still don't understand half the A level chemistry we did I was trying to sit grade 8 at the time (having done reasonably well at G6 a year or so before) but couldn't find the time in between working (necessary, saving for uni), volunteer work (necessary for med school), football (good stress relief and only time I saw then boyfriend) and afternoon naps (necessary!).

The solution was simple - stop trying to do grade 8. I still had great fun on the piano and even took on teaching the neighbour's kids as beginners. I also did the musical direction for the school musical in upper sixth. The pieces were easier so I didn't need to spend so much time on them, and there's nothing like playing 'that's your funeral' when you don't understand ion exchange columns!!!

Perhaps the "too much homework" thing could be a time management issue? Ok, maybe not so for younger primary school kids, but quite possibly for secondary school+ students. Getting in from college at 5 ish (traffic depending), I can, do 30 mins of piano practice - usually 5 minutes of playing something that I like and chilling out. Then the 25 minutes of "proper" practice - ie the stuff my teacher sets. Then I go to homework and coursework, getting in a good 1 hr 30 mins before tea. After having made a reasonable attempt on the homework pile, flute practice for an hour to an hour and a half. Then after that, back to the homework and coursework, and in bed by midnight usually. See, it's perfectly manageable!

*nods* I think that kids need to know that this response will be understood and catered for, and then they won't try to fake having practiced when they haven't. Also for some kids at least I think the idea that not having done enough practice *won't* necessarily result in being yelled at may actually make doing the practice a less stressful thing: it no longer becomes a life-or-death situation "oh my goodness what will my teacher say" and they can enjoy the playing instead and be more honest with their teacher about problems they're having with the music. Definitely a good thing.

CD: I did understand you, sorry if my post didn't make that clear!! I know a fair few people who got grade 8s whilst at school and getting good A Level results at the same time, I'm always impressed...

I know that pupils not practising must get irritating and frustrating after a while... but if they are still paying for the lessons, and still enjoying the music, then I think that's the most important thing for both sides. I know that being accused of not practising (even if I had) and being told I had to buck my ideas up just because my piano teacher decided I "should" be doing better than I was was about the last straw for my piano playing: it wasn't enjoyable any more in any way, and it took me 13 or so years to have lessons again.

Good points AP all round

In my opinion, that is one of the most dangerous things a teacher can do. Our chances of actually being right if we say this are poor. We tend to think we know when kids have practised because fluent, musical playing usually results from this.

There are all sorts of things that can cause a pupil to play below par in lessons; the greatest is likely to be tension caused by doubt about the reception the playing will receive. Best, I think, not to comment adversly to a child about what we perceive to be the amount of practise done.

Neither do I praise what I perceive to have been a lot of practise. Apart from the chances of being wrong and so looking an idiot, subsequent lack of comment will be taken as implicit criticism by a sensitive child.

The conclusion I have drawn is; best not to comment to the child. Where I feel there is a problem, I tackle the parents.

Steve

I had a student in school this morning who came in to his lesson and announced he was giving up piano because he had too much homework. He missed quite a few lessons last term and rarely did much work. I'm sure his GCSE studies will greatly benefit from the extra 30 minutes he will gain by giving up piano. I will benefit too. I have a new student to replace him - a complete beginner.

Also, the amount of homework varies. This weekend, I just have a little bit to do, but last week, and some of my GCSE weeks, I'd literally spend Saturday morning going to band, then by the time I'd got back and had lunch at about 3, I'd work until dinner time, have dinner and then do some more. 1 page of Graphics used to take me the whole day, because the teacher expected me to produce perfect work.

Anyway, sorry, will continue this post but have a flute rehearsal now!

A complete beginner. I have taught hundreds of them and yet, the term still evokes a thrill. The chance to try again; to improve still more; who knows what this one might bring.

I have been doing this for more than 30 years, yet I still get a huge kick out of watching small fingers travel around the keyboard.

Granted, they miss their target more often than not, but who cares?

Steve

As much as we bemoan our trials and tribulations as educators, you've gotta admit, we all love it!!!

Exactly. It would be virtually impossible for him to be worse than the student I just lost.

Sarah, you put into words really well the situation some of my advanced students are in. These are individuals who try hard and achieve well generally, but are coping with literally dozens of different demands on their time. I agree with others that time management can be an issue, and something we explore during lessons-but these are well motivated and intelligent people, who simply can't do everything all the time. At the end of the day, they are choosing to come to piano lessons when they could be doing something else.