I've just been playing Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, and I have the cd too. The cd is quite a bit faster than how I am playing it. Do you think I am allowed to go slightly slower than the cd, as is it likely that the cd version is just someone's personal preference of speed? Or will I fail completely doing it at a slightly slower speed?

Thanks in advance for any comments....

Joy

Play in your own style!!!
I think the CD just shows the player's interpretation. However, the examiner may ask why you play like this.

First of all I'm quite confused about which recording you refer to as the CD; I would assume it was the AB CD but I'm fairly sure that they don't make one. There are loads of recordings of this piece by professional each of which will go at a different speed. A CD recording is by no means ever a definitive speed (unless of course it's obeying a composer's meternome mark which will be on the score anyway, even these can be bent). People have played slower than some recordings and got their own professional recordings which are sometimes regarded as better so speed isn't everything. It's worth noting that Brendel's later recordings of the Beethoven Sonatas are generally slower than his earlier ones; I guess he felt that he had developed more as a pianist and needed less to use speed to impress or simply that the slower tempo was more appropriate now. Most young and upcoming pianists seem to generally play faster than older established pianists as they need to be out to impress. I recall Artur Pizzaro saying that that if he did another cycle of the Beethoven Sonatas that he would like to loose the pseudo-intellectualism surrounding them; it sounds almost as if in his first cycle he had to 'prove' that he could play them what's considered 'properly' and only now does he feel it will be accepted for him to do something different. If you're way off the mark and far slower than anyone would play it the examiners will deduct marks from this but if you reach a reasonable tempo that's perfectly reasonable to the character of the piece then you will be fine.

One thing worth remembering is that this is a DipABRSM, and whilst it's by no means easy and high standards are required, any professional performer you hear playing the piece on a recording will (hopefully!) be playing the piece to post FRSM standard, so you really don't need to be as good as them to pass (still rather good though).

For some more generally practical useful advice, rather than me going on about what should and should not be done, YAP played the first movement (Allegro part) at 126 and passed the dipABRSM exam (well he rehearsed it at this speed, the actual exam performance was probably slightly faster as these things tend to be....). I'm assuming this is for a dipABRSM by the way, you said in another thread that you were playing the 'Moonlight' for this exam .

Incidentally YAP did wish after the exam (and before really but didn't want to change after already putting in all that work) he hadn't chosen that sonata and had done a different one (No. 12 to be specific) he just didn't have the knowledge of all of the sonatas at the time of choosing. If you've not already put too much work into these to change I would strongly suggest that you listen to all of the sonatas and become familiar with them before finalising your choices, these two are very over played, and some of the others are so much better so please don't miss out by just going for the familiar ones. Of course if you've already invested too much time without doing this then carry on listen to the rest then explore them after the exam.

[quote=AnotherPianist,Sep 25 2005, 12:37 PM]


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First of all I'm quite confused about which recording you refer to as the CD; I would assume it was the AB CD but I'm fairly sure that they don't make one. There are loads of recordings of this piece by professional each of which will go at a different speed. A CD recording is by no means ever a definitive speed (unless of course it's obeying a composer's meternome mark which will be on the score anyway, even these can be bent). People have played slower than some recordings and got their own professional recordings which are sometimes regarded as better so speed isn't everything. It's worth noting that Brendel's later recordings of the Beethoven Sonatas are generally slower than his earlier ones; I guess he felt that he had developed more as a pianist and needed less to use speed to impress or simply that the slower tempo was more appropriate now. Most young and upcoming pianists seem to generally play faster than older established pianists as they need to be out to impress. If you're way off the mark and far slower than anyone would play it the examiners will deduct marks from this but if you reach a reasonable tempo that's perfectly reasonable to the character of the piece then you will be fine.

One thing worth remembering is that this is a DipABRSM, and whilst it's by no means easy and high standards are required, any professional performer you hear playing the piece on a recording will (hopefully!) be playing the piece to post FRSM standard, so you really don't need to be as good as them to pass (still rather good though).

For some more generally practical useful advice, rather than me going on about what should and should not be done, YAP played the first movement (Allegro part) at 126 and passed the dipABRSM exam (well he rehearsed it at this speed, the actual exam performance was probably slightly faster as these things tend to be....). I'm assuming this is for a dipABRSM by the way, you said in another thread that you were playing the 'Moonlight' for this exam .

Incidentally YAP did wish after the exam (and before really but didn't want to change after already putting in all that work) he hadn't chosen that sonata and had done a different one (No. 12 to be specific) he just didn't have the knowledge of all of the sonatas at the time of choosing. If you've not already put too much work into these to change I would strongly suggest that you listen to all of the sonatas and become familiar with them before finalising your choices, these two are very over played, and some of the others are so much better so please don't miss out by just going for the familiar ones. Of course if you've already invested too much time without doing this then carry on listen to the rest then explore them after the exam.

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The cd is just one I have bought, I was simply saying that it was a professional recording. I am not too far under the speed that they play at.

Yes, I am preparing for the Diploma, just taking my time with it because I have lots of other things going on too. I was originally playing the Pathetique for the DipABRSM, however taking Gae's advice, I've decided to learn the Moonlight sonata, and I am getting into the feel of it, more than the other. I know they are two popular ones, however I really love the final movement of the Moonlight sonata, so it is a personal preference. However, I may listen to others to see what else might be worth having a play of. I have briefly heard the Appasionata one, is this a less popular one? Can you reccomend any other ones to listen to?

Thanks

Joy

Appasionata is certainly less common to play but this is because it's on the FRSM syllabus so is considerably harder; it's still one of the more 'famous' sonatas though.

Personally of the ones in the dip syllabus I'm quite a fan of Numbers 5 and 6 (Op.10 nos.1 and 2), Number 1 (Op.2 no.1) is good also. YAP really likes Number 12 (Op.26) he's right too, it is a good one. The others are quite good too but these are the ones I would pick out, obviously this is just my personal preference, you may find that you like the opposite ones! I must point out that this is merely from a listening to not a playing point of view, but I tend to have complete disregard for difficulty within the confines of a syllabus and go for what I like anyway .

I would recommend that you listen to as many as you can it will help with the programme notes and viva. Of the ones not on the Dip syllabus my favourites are: No. 15 (Op. 28), No. 17 (Op. 31 No. 2, 'Tempest'), No. 25 (Op. 79), No. 29 (Op. 106, 'Hammerklavier'), the second movement of No. 18 (Op. 31 No. 3) is so instantly likeable I'm suprised it's not rather more famous, this may be a good introduction (be sure to listen to the rest of the piece too as it's excellent); gosh it's much easier to make a list than listen to these cruel people who say pick one I could go on and on but then I'd end up listing them all and that wouldn't help! It's quite annoying actually there was a complete cycle for free by Artur Pizzaro on the Radio 3 website but it's been taken down now .

Assuming you're not feeling particularly rich and are thinking, what does she expect me to buy the lot?! A quick google finds the Piano Society website which has some mp3s available for free, they won't be professional recordings (I haven't listened to them) and some only have single movements, but it should be enough to give you and idea of which are worth pursuing. If you search for individual ones that you want you may well be able to turn up a reasonable free recording too.

I shall have a look at that link, thanks I still love Moonlight, do you think they are more likely to mark me down if it is a more common piece? With the speed I mean?

I'm sure any ABRSM specialist piano examiner worth their salt (and I'm sure most are!) would be reasonably familiar with most if not all of the Beethoven Sonatas as this is standard piano repertoire (as exam candidates who are playing any of them will also be expected to be). So I think the speed and feeling of the piece will be judged well on any of these. I do, however, think it may be harder to get good marks for the more popular pieces as you really do have to get them over the idea of 'oh no, not another rendition of this piece' by doing something slightly more special with it.

As an examiner (I mean if I were one; not that I am one!) I would certainly be a lot more probing in the viva of someone who had chosen a more popular piece to find out why they picked that one and make sure it was because they genuinely knew them all and liked that one still, or wanted the challenge of playing a popular piece; rather than through ignorance of the others and 'just liking' that one.

Yes I can see your point, but I still love the sonata, and think that it is special for me, so I want to run with it for now. Obviously I will listen to other sonatas too to get the feel for them also. I know that they are more likley to see mistakes too in a more popular one so that is something to consider too. I shall have to see Decisions, decisions!

Joy

Good luck .

I have a CD with Beethoven sonatas by Daniel Barenboim. Is this the one you are talking about? It has the Moonlight, Pathetique, Appassionata, and the G major op49 (HMV). Barenboim is one of the absolute top performers of Beethoven sonatas so you would learn a lot from his playing (if it is this one).

Whichever recording it is, AP is absolutely right. Interpretation is individual (and is indeed what makes you a good performer, even more than playing the right notes in the right places; you are just assumed to do that at this level!). I remember Abaddo discussing Beethoven tempi, and how they are often played around with. Good point about familiar pieces. I often steer away from too familiar pieces (like Mozart - sadly!) for exam programs.

Good luck.

Yes, even if it's an unconscious thing... however, if you really love the piece and can really make it your own, I should think that giving a truly superb and original, personal rendition of it (and overthrowing the examiners' "oh no not again" feelings) could have the opposite effect

I have two landmark recordings of the pathetique, one by Artur Rubinstein and one by Glenn Gould. Though Rubinstein's playing (in the outer movements) is virtually half the speed of Gould's it loses nothing in virtuosity, beauty or effect. The urgency of the first movement is created far more by the evenness of tone and rhythm than simply by the metronome mark. Only the harshest of examiners would penalise an immaculately played slower tempo.

i may not be diploma standard, but 1 thing i do know is that the Pathetique, along with the Moonlight and Appassionata Sonatas, are VERY overplayed and is VERY difficult to get your own interpretation for it. but try it what YOU think is the best without it being too absurd

Anyone choosing the pathetique or moonlight should of course only be doing so because their interpretation is indiviual and original (this is still possible! but unfortunately for every brilliant new interpretation i tend to hear a hundred conventional dull ones - both pieces are overplayed) Don't pick them because they're famous. either can sound fantastic in the right hands but so can all of beethoven's sonatas and most people tend to overlook all but these 2, which is a great pity.
and within reason, speed is part of interpretation, as schubertriad pointed out. so in short, don't let the fact that they're overplayed put you off (though i'm sure it hasn't), but also don't let it exclude any possibility of playing the other (often superb) sonatas. i only have volume 1 and could happily play it cover to cover (though probably not in one sitting!)

I've fumbled through two or three back to back on occasion, it's great fun .

I think volume I is the best for this though - trying to do it with volume III is considerably more difficult .

Just realised I got my wires crossed on my first posting.. I meant the speed of Moonlight, not Pathetique. I am still not sure which one to chose, I am playing them because I like them personally, for my own pleasure. However for the diploma I am considering looking at some of the other sonatas, so we'll see what happens!

what i said for the Pathetique is the same for the Moonlight...hope it helped

Yeah it did, just was thinking about it the other day, and thought to myself that i wrote down the wrong name!

Anyway, thanks for the comments
Joy