(I thought I'd posted this but must have clicked on the wrong thing as I can't now see it )

Anyway I must admit I got to feeling a little "left out" at the last forum concert as I was unable to join in the recorder ensemble, so I was idly wondering how difficult it might be to learn a little so I could join in next time there was an opportunity.

Your advice please...given that I have no desire (yet I know how these things can get addictive), to become an ace recorder player, I have enough problems finding enough practice time for my violin!

So, how difficult is it really, is it out the question without a load of commitment and time investment?

How good to I need to be to be able to join in ensembles?

Given that I already sight read treble clef....but treble clef only, which recorder should I go for (all supposing I do)

And how much should I be spending on one given this is a one off, "please can I join in" activity not a career move?

Thanks all

Go for it! It's not difficult to learn the basics, and reading treble clef is all you need - a great head start. Descant and treble are the most useful, and both would be welcome in all kinds of ensembles - just pick the one you like best and go for it! As an adult I'm sure you'll make great progress if you practise for a few minutes each day, or a few longer sessions three or four times a week.

Oh, and you can get a decent plastic descant for about £10, treble for about £30. I have a set of wooden recorders too, but still ended up playing my £30 plastic treble in my grade 8 because the high notes were clearer sounding and more in tune!

The Yamaha 302 series of plastic recorders are very nice instruments and not very expensive. There worth the (very little) extra cost over other plastic makes.

Descant and tenor recorders have C as their bottom note; sopranino, treble and bass have F. It would probably be best to stick to one group or the other: either descant or tenor from group 1, or treble from group 2.

All you need is a recorder and a decent tutor book, and you can tootle away. Brian Bonsor's 'Enjoy the Recorder' is a good series for adult beginners.

I would recommend an adult beginner to learn treble. Overall, it is the recorder with the greatest range of music. If you get hooked on the instrument and its repertoire*, the next step would be bass, which makes you a popular member of recorder ensembles.

* 16th and 17th C. consort music, often originally intended for viols but some of it played on recorders also at the time, much of it intended for amateurs and not too difficult; Baroque chamber music, including trio sonatas with strings, other woodwind and keyboard, but also duos (notably those by Telemann), trios and quartets for equal instruments; 20th C. sonatas with keyboard (e.g. a beautiful sonata by Walter Leigh, a much more difficult sonatina by Lennox Berkeley) and some chamber music.

Go for it, Jane!

Cheers

Katyjay

So are the plastic better than the wood ones??? Plastic sounds like it is a toy, rather than a musical instrument proper



Hmmm I think I sort of fancy the treble, but does this mean it is a transposing instrument?? And does that mean I have to do anything special / complicated when sight reading? If so I might go for tenor...but does that mean a big stretch of my fingers???

Thanks all. You are very encouraging!

Jane

Plastic recorders (e.g. Aulos) are still serious instruments, not toys.

The treble is not a transposing instrument - it just uses different fingerings for notes than the descant or tenor do.

I personally find a tenor to be an uncomfortable stretch, so I'm much happier playing treble, but everyone's different.


Cheers

Katyjay

To obtain a wooden instrument which is better all round than a plastic one (tone, tuning, clarity at the top end) you have to spend a lot of money - I've been told approx. £400 for a treble. My treble cost £110 and isn't as agile as my £30 plastic one, as well as going out of tune faster and needing more maintenance. That's why I ended up playing the plastic one in my grade 8. However, my wooden descant (which cost around £100) is lovely, so I played that one too (you're allowed to play one piece on a descant or tenor in the higher treble exams). I think the plastic Aulos and Yamaha recorders are fab though. I've always found the tenor comfortable, but I have very bendy joints and stretchy hands. If you're unsure which one to go for, try the treble. It's got a lovely sound, it's comfortable and has the most music written for it.

Thanks Katyjay.....I think I am set on a treble then, plastic, but good

Anyone recommend a make / model (Yamaha 302 and Aulos already been mentioned). I had a quick google and it looks like they are not frighteningly expensive (like violins!), so not a great investment for a lot of fun.

And anyone recommend a book / books to help me learn?

Oooer..can't believe I am doing this!

I played four recorders in school - descant (1000's of them!) treble (100's of them!), tenor (4 of us!) and bass (just me) - the finger stretches in tenor are ok, it's the little finger of the RH that will feel it most! The weight of the instrument was always a problem for me, but then I was only 11! I still own a descant and tenor, but don't play very often any more

At a quick glance, the '302 is £19.99 from Chamberlain .

A bargain!!!!

I was happy to play my 302 treble and bass in the concert.

You can pay a little more and get a 312 which is the same instrument, but simulated rosewood. I bought two descants: a 302 and a 312, because I couldn't choose between them.

Book recommendations: see my previous post.

have fun.

Thanks Andante...I'll compare and contrast the 302 and 312, and the Bonser book (yes sorry I overlooked that in my excitement earlier)

Goodness, there's been a lot of activity here while I've been doing the (beastly) housework! Just dropped in briefly before I start today's teaching...

Welcome to recorder playing, then, Jane! I'd also advise you to get Yamaha recorders, I wouldn't recommend Aulos myself - they're OKish, but the Yamahas definitely have a nicer tone.

Let us know how you get on!

Thanks for all your advice folks.

I might just go internet shopping tomorrow

I have a Yamaha 302 descant, I think it is definitely better than the rubbish Early Learning Centre ones I have !

I need some good descant recorder music though.

Definitely take it up though Jane

i reccomend learning Treble first as that is
1) the most common
2) the most frequently used in repertoire

Descant also will be useful as that is pretty popular. When you get enough experience, try using Sopranino, Tenor and Bass or even (god help me for saying this) Garklein (thats very hard to play)

my Recorders currently stand at

Garklein
Aulos plastic (VERY hard to play)

Sopranino
Yamaha plastic (German fingering)
Aulos plastic (Baroque fingering)

Soprano
Zamir in Maple
Aulos plastic
Yamaha plastic

Treble
Schott in Cherrywood (cracked so wont play)
Aulos plastic

Tenor
Aulos plastic

Go for treble, Jane - best music, and much more mellow!

Plus, most people play descant, fewer learn treble, so you will always be appreciated in chamber music.

No wonder I had trouble finding that recorder you recommended on Chamberlain, Andante, I was looking for an Aulos 302(!) - oops! Been meaning to ask you for ages, and turns out I'm just being dim...

PS, another thing I've meant to ask your proper recorder players (as opposed to clueless me ) is 1) what is this about an arched windway? and 2) do you think that the simulated rosewood or ebony recorders are worth the extra £1-2 pounds?

are bass great bass and tenor recorders available in plastic and is there such a things as an alto recorder (or did invent that )

Basses and tenors are available in plastic - don't know about the great bass.

Alto is often used as an alternative to treble with recorders, hence treble=alto, and also descant=soprano recoders, as far as I know - no, you didn't make it up

oooohhh i might take up bass recorder then (i love baroque music)

I'm glad you've cleared up the 302 now, Sarah.

I don't know about arched windways. Jo? Ruthypegs?

The simulated rosewood/ebony are supposed to be exactly the same apart from the looks, but I notice a definite difference with my descants: the rosewood one is a little less mellow and more penetrating. I liked both, so I bought both. (And then felt guilty.)

I wondered if there was an explanation on the net, so googled it:

"One of the most significant features of Bressan's instrument was the arched windway (see the curved slit on the top of an instrument). This made it easier for players to move effortlessly across the whole compass of the instrument."

(http://www.spacedog.biz/musicoftheangels.htm)

This page has a good diagram of which bit is which, I didn't even know which bit they were talking about for sure!!

edit: meant to say, thanks for the input about the recorders... I thought I remembered you, or someone, mentioning some sort of difference, but couldn't remember what!

Been Shopping

Watch this space

Oooh! *rubs hands in glee*

Go Janexxx go!!!

recorder has a lovely sound...... there's a young lad plays recorder beside me in orchestra and his sound is so lovely compared to the flutes. 4 flutes versus 1 recorder and he stands out above us all.

I'm sure you'll have fun

Wooo, go Jane! (Jazz recorder?? LOL!)

Better get myself across to "Viva Woodwind" now I suppose.......

Hmmmm...... I guess everyone is friendly in there and will be gentle with me

definitely, Viva Woodwind is a very nice forum, and we'll be kind

Please excuse this slight highjack of your thread Jane, but it is relevant. When I tried to play the Tenor prior to the concert I found I couldn't even produce many of the notes, and the stretch hurt my hands and elbow and shoulder joints. But I did enjoy playing descant at the concert, and the instant sightreading bit was good for me (albeit a slight baptism of fire!).

But afterwards Jo told me if I wanted to join the SRP group, that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to play descant (presumably because of all the mistakes I made in the concert, oops!) But I can't play the Tenor because it's too uncomfortable. So, do you think a treble would be OK instead? It's a pity about the descant because I like the feel of it, but if I'm no good at it then it will just be humiliating for me, and of no benefit to any ensemble that I inflict myself on.

Sorry, all that was too wordy by far. What I'm asking is, what do people think of my learning the treble too, like Janexxx.

Sorry Janexxx, here's your thread back.



Amber
x

PS. Will I have the same difficulty producing the notes on a treble as I did on the Tenor?

ooohh we can learn together!!!!

That would be fun.

Can Archie come along to lessons too!

Amber, the treble is a much easier stretch than the tenor (and I suspect Jo's comment had a fair amount to do with the fact that there are usually OODLES of people who play descants!) - have you ever tried flute, clarinet, anything like that? Similar sort of stretch to the treble, or more, that's all, if you can fit your hands round one of those I don't think treble would be any problem at all. With the tenor, was is difficult for you to close the holes? That would have made the notes harder to get out. I also find tenor quite a reach, I can manage it but much prefer treble! You'll have to get used to the instrument being a 5th (i think...) lower (or is it a 4th? can't think straight...) ie, the fingering you use for G on the descant produces a C on the recorder, but if you can get your head around that you will be away. Treble has a lovely mellow tone, hope you enjoy it if you learn

I am not an expert and I'm sure others will have more specific info, but for my twopennorth, yes, go for it, it's great

Hi Amber.

I cannot play the tenor for long periods, for the reasons mentioned.

And, no, the number of mistakes you made has nothing to do with why Jo suggested you wouldn't be able to play descant in an SRP ensemble. The reason is balance - they usually only have three or four on descant, and they are always the very experienced players.

You should be fine with treble, but if your reach is small like mine see if you can try a few out - I do find some easier to play than others.

Treble is an F instrument, so you may have to go through a conversion period if you haven't played one before. The note you get with all your fingers down is F, not C, and it is written at pitch (rather than an octave below like descant).

Let me know if you need any more help.

Well I do play the flute, but not lessons or anything. (I used to have lessons when I was a teenager, but kept getting lightheaded and fainting in the classes!)

I really like the flute, but because I'm not very good at it I didn't think I should ask to play it in the Grand Finale Ensemble at the concert. But in retrospect, it probably would have sounded better than the Archie's-dinner I made on the Recorder!

I think I could get my head round the fingering being different from the descant. It might be a short-term problem, but after practising for a bit and getting the different fingering lodged into my brain it should be fine.

Jane, maybe we should be thinking about a duet at the February concert?

Hi Andante,

Can you recommend a good starter treble bearing in mind the difficulties in stretch?

Thanks



Amber
x

I had a feeling you played something woodwind-y!

I'm lucky enough to have long fingers, but I should think if you can manage a flute, a treble shouldn't be too bad, especially if Andante can recommend you one that's good for smaller hands

Have fun! Look forward to hearing how you get on

I must actually do some recorder practice so I don't make a complete idiot of myself come the recorder ensemble whenever I get to a concert...

And you knew I was blonde, and sort of what I look like.

This is SPOOKY !!!!

Maybe we know each other? Are you the Sarah who lives next door but one to me by any chance!



Ambs
x

ohhh yes, book now to avoid disappointment

Can he bring his ball-on-a-rope and play percussion?

Amber - I was sitting next to you in the recorder ensemble & the grand finale and you most certainly did not make a dog's dinner of it. For 2 people who'd literally dug out descant recorders for the day I thought we played Jeepers Creepers perfectly well. I admit that top A gave us a bit of grief but I think between us it was OK!! Where's your self confidence gone to??

I was thinking of something traditional, maybe Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

(Sorry, i'm a slow learner!)



Amber
x

I don't think so! I think you live some way away from me (unfortunately!! I think you have mentioned (this *isn't a guess* that you live somewhere over South East!) Maybe I'm just psychic and haven't realised it yet or maybe I'm just random good at guessing...? Or... are you sure you haven't mentioned the flute sometime??

Well, hope to meet you at a concert soon and then it won't be spooky any more just nice!

APF, you played Jeepers Creepers exceptionally well. I had to leave those top A's all to you! I can still only just about make them given about five minutes working at it beforehand!

Mind you it helped when I read somewhere about making the aperture of the back thumb hole smaller. Think that may have been where I've been going wrong.

I haven't lost all my self confidence, honest!



Ambs
x

I didn't know that for AGES when coming back (or trying to) to recorder - it helps a lot doesn't it?

Certainly helped me.

I wonder if there's a book which gives useful tips like that for people who want to teach themselves. Does the Bonsor book have this sort of information please Andante?



Amber
x

Hmm, I remember the strangest things, but I think recall Amber mentioning that she borrowed a cigarette from the man next door to see if it was possible to smoke and play the flute at the same time .

The reason I don't recommend that any newcomers to SRP go straight in and play descant is because it's so exposed that any slips can be really glaringly apparent, which can be very embarrassing especially if you're not very confident! It's MUCH better for someone 'testing the waters' if they can feel comfortably hidden among the trebles or tenors for a while, and then when they become more confident, by all means play descant!

Ability-wise, SRP meetings tend to be a very mixed bag - some people are brilliant players, others are not long past the beginner stage. I'd highly recommend it as a means to get into ensemble playing - it's great fun, and I've made loads of good friends whom I initially met at SRP meetings - once you get to know people (and can play both F and C instruments), you can find kindred souls to play consorts with too!

In case anyone has memories of school groups consisting mainly of descants, by the way, the balance of instruments at a typical SRP might be, as Andante said, perhaps four descants, lots of trebles and tenors (often about 10/12 of each) and about six basses, with perhaps a great bass or two and a contra as well. It depends on the Branch - some are larger, some smaller - but I'd say that's about average.