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Lazy Bear Piano Grade 2 - 1st and 2nd time bars


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#1 musicposy

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 11:52

I don't usually do repeats for ABRSM exams, as specified, and I usually just cross out 1st time bars and tell the pupil we don't need them. However, I've got someone doing Lazy Bear this summer and he's learnt both 1st and 2nd time bars. My issue with it is that they are quite different from each other, unlike most 1st/2nd time bars, and the first time bar feels integral to the melody to me. It seems quite an important chunk to miss out.

On the other hand, it's quite a long piece for a G2 exam if you put the repeat in, given the DC al fine, and I'm not sure him repeating is going to go down well. Have any teachers done it in the spring, and what did you do?
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#2 Iulia

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 12:12

Yeah I wondered about this one as well. I feel musically its 'wrong' to leave it out, but it does become rather long as you say.


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#3 Dr. Rogers

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 12:16

I have an adult student doing it this month.  As I'm sure you're aware, the syllabus says "All da capo and dal segno indications should be observed but all other repeats (including first-time bars) should be omitted unless they are very brief (i.e. of a few bars) or unless the syllabus specifies otherwise."  Since the syllabus doesn't set a hard minimum or maximum, I interpret that as giving us some leeway here.

 

My issue with it is that they are quite different from each other, unlike most 1st/2nd time bars, and the first time bar feels integral to the melody to me. It seems quite an important chunk to miss out.

 

I agree with you 100% on this.  I discussed it with my student, and suggested that the she perform the first ending prima volta, but not after the da capo, thus AABA.

 

When is your student's exam?  My student's exam (and my Grade 8 exam, eek!) is in two weeks' time, on the 24th of this month.  I would be glad to report back on whether or not the examiner comments on the repeat if that would be in time to help your student.


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#4 Aquarelle

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 12:51

I'm teaching this and I will be sticking to the AB ruling that you only do repeats if they are Da Capo or it is otherwise stated in the footnotes. I wouldn't risk a repeat as they presumably know what they want to hear and it might be thought a bit presumptuous to do otherwise - particularly if by any chance the candidate messed up the repeat.  The  Grade 2 exam is only 12 minutes long and I think one of the reasons for the "no repeats" rule is simply timing. 


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#5 Dorcas

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 12:57

Agree with Aquarelle, ABA is appropriate. 


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#6 musicposy

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 13:14

An interesting range of replies - thank you!
Dr. Rogers, this is for the main summer session so earliest would be mid June. If you get any comments back that would be really useful (hope your Grade 8 goes well, too!).

I have been doing AABA up until now but it did occur to me it was long and that ABA sticks to the letter of the law. The rules are a bit vague and I've only ever repeated before where it's been obvious, such as one line in a much longer and more advanced work.

With a less able pupil I'd just be grateful for them to learn less (!), but this is a diligent adult who is very keen that his pieces should sound exactly right.
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#7 The Great Sosso

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 13:43

I'm teaching this piece to three students at the moment.

 

Two are very able, so I am asking them to learn the repeat (Playing AABA).  It's much better with the repeat as people have said above and at this stage they are learning as much about how a well-constructed piece of music should sound, as they are learning to play the notes.  It's much more enjoyable to play with the first and second time bars.

 

The third student, who rarely practises, could frankly do with one bar less to learn.  I suspect asking her to learn the repeat could add at least four weeks onto learning time, and might confuse her, so I'm asking her to just learn ABA.

 

However, when it comes to the exam, they will all be playing ABA because that is how I interpret the ABRSM rules.

 

TGS X


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#8 HelenVJ

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 13:54

Has anyone checked what happens on the 'official' CD recording?


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#9 ma non troppo

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 16:39

Having just had an examiner complain about a student's photocopying of an awkward page turn (grade 8) I would be wary in general of breaking the rules, in a way I wouldn't have been previously. Nothing came of it, but they told him it had been "noted" which made him feel stressed for the rest of the exam.
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#10 Banjogirl

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 16:57

Having just had an examiner complain about a student's photocopying of an awkward page turn (grade 8) I would be wary in general of breaking the rules, in a way I wouldn't have been previously. Nothing came of it, but they told him it had been "noted" which made him feel stressed for the rest of the exam.


Associated Board allow this in the rules, so you should complain, as the examiner's comments could easily have put your student off. We've done it loads of times, photocopy a page for an awkward turn, that is.
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#11 Minuet3

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 17:00

This topic came up on a different forum recently, and if I remember correctly, there were a variety of opinions, from teachers who had either put students in playing AABA, or ABA, and all had been marked OK.

 

My own pupil went in the Spring, and played ABA, I must admit, once I saw the other forum, I was a bit concerned, because harmonically AABA makes more sense as you pass from A to B, but by the time I saw it, it was too late to change it for my student. However, he got 29/30 for the piece, so no problems there.

 

I reckon if they play well, and do AABA, there would be unlikely to even be a comment on it in the exam, good playing is always appreciated, and it really is only a few seconds extra if they are playing fluently.


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#12 jenny

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 17:25

 

Having just had an examiner complain about a student's photocopying of an awkward page turn (grade 8) I would be wary in general of breaking the rules, in a way I wouldn't have been previously. Nothing came of it, but they told him it had been "noted" which made him feel stressed for the rest of the exam.


Associated Board allow this in the rules, so you should complain, as the examiner's comments could easily have put your student off. We've done it loads of times, photocopy a page for an awkward turn, that is.

 

 

This is definitely allowed and I think it's very poor that the examiner was so unhelpful. I also would complain.  


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#13 musicposy

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Posted 09 May 2019 - 18:16

I just checked the "official" CD as per Helen's suggestion (no idea why that hadn't occurred to me) and they don't include the 2nd time bar at all. I think it's a shame but it would sway me towards thinking that ABA is what they want.

I don't think examiners should be commenting to the pupil at all - that should be saved for correspondence to the teacher if there's an issue. A few years back I had a pupil do an alternative piece which I had in one of my old exam books (because I've been teaching forever, or it feels like it!). I lent her the book. The examiner quizzed her at length as to where she got the book from, checking she hadn't been using a photocopy in the lead up. It really knocked her confidence in the exam. I complained to the board, pointing out they say "any edition" and that it might surprise them to know I don't actually play "Grade 1 1996" much for pleasure and therefore can afford to lose it to a pupil for a term or two. They were very apologetic and I must say I've not had any trouble in that direction since. I currently have a Grade 5 doing all alternative pieces (Dream, New Orleans Nightfall, Kuhlau Allegretto Grazioso) from old exam books bought off eBay as it was the cheapest way to get hold of the music. I also have a Grade 8 student who has written out a few bars of one of her pieces on Sibelius in the other clef as she found it easier to read. So I would hope that any issues with repeats/ music/ the odd copied bar they would approach me and not the student nowadays. It's disheartening to read this isn't always the case.

I may get him to do ABA in the exam to be on the safe side (and 29/30 would fill anyone with confidence they were correct), though I'm sure this particular adult could hold his own if told off in the exam!
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#14 maggiemay

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 10:42

A recent grade 7 candidate of mine used an old exam book to play the Loeillet Giga, and as far as I know, no comments were made.

And yes, he’d borrowed the book right through the learning process.

I’ve also used a photocopied page at times to help with an impossible page turn.

I agree examiners should not be commenting to the candidate about either of these issues, and it is worrying to read that they sometimes do.

I had cause to write to the Board about a ‘scary’ and ‘unfriendly’ examiner after the last session. But that’s a different issue.
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#15 qjkelly

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 14:52

I just checked the "official" CD as per Helen's suggestion (no idea why that hadn't occurred to me) and they don't include the 2nd time bar at all. I think it's a shame but it would sway me towards thinking that ABA is what they want.
 

Hi musicposy - Did you mean they don't include 1st time bars?


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