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Half-dotted note


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#1 Tixylix

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:42

I accidentally wrote 3/7 as a time signature in a list of pieces, and it got me thinking about how you would create a seventh note (in American terminology).

A quarter note is 8 semiquavers, an 8th note is 2. Therefore a dotted quaver would be a 6th note as it is equivalent to 3 semiquavers. a 7th note would need to be 2 and a half semiquavers, so 2 semiquavers and one demisemiquaver.

A dotted note extends the note by half again, a double dot half again after that. This would mean the second dot on a quaver would represent a demisemiquaver, but we have to only have the second dot and not the first dot. I have created notation for this, which I call the half-dotted note and is shown by an open dot next to the note (see below).

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Suggestions for improved notation and/or name welcome.
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#2 Cyrilla

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:10

This is what comes of being up at 4.42am!

blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif
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#3 BitterSweet

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:49

agree.gif

Impressive work though smile.gif
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#4 maggiemay

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:13

My brain hurts - and the coffee hasn't got there yet - but -

A sixth note would need to be one-sixth of a semibreve. I don't think a dotted quaver quite makes it?

Similarly a seventh note would be hard to pin down.

I like the idea of a symbol for a half-dotted note, though!
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#5 Tenor Viol

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:50

If people start writing time signatures such as 3/7 I'm taking up fire juggling - less likely to damage my brain tongue.gif

1/7 is an irrational number so you could not represent it exactly (so is 1/3 but we've worked a way round that...).

In American terminology I thought that a quarter note is a crotchet, so 4 semi-quavers?
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#6 owainsutton

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:03

QUOTE(Tenor Viol @ Feb 27 2013, 09:50 AM) View Post

If people start writing time signatures such as 3/7 I'm taking up fire juggling - less likely to damage my brain tongue.gif

It's time to sign up to circus school....Henry Cowell came up with the concept of irrational time signatures nearly a century ago. This article's title sums up the response some composers feel appropriate when told that they're writing things which are impossible! This one goes into more detail about performing such rhythms.
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#7 linda.ff

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:03

QUOTE(owainsutton @ Feb 27 2013, 10:03 AM) View Post

QUOTE(Tenor Viol @ Feb 27 2013, 09:50 AM) View Post

If people start writing time signatures such as 3/7 I'm taking up fire juggling - less likely to damage my brain tongue.gif

It's time to sign up to circus school....Henry Cowell came up with the concept of irrational time signatures nearly a century ago. This article's title sums up the response some composers feel appropriate when told that they're writing things which are impossible! This one goes into more detail about performing such rhythms.

One is always left wondering what is the point? Can you hear such things? Or is it just for being clever on paper?

Surely what music sounds like is the only important thing? Or is it?
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#8 Arundodonuts

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:16

QUOTE(owainsutton @ Feb 27 2013, 10:03 AM) View Post

This one goes into more detail about performing such rhythms.

I was going to mention Fearnyhough. How about:
http://toddtarantino...icare_mm1_2.gif

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#9 fsharpminor

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:21

This is an interesting thread, though I don't have any rational suggestions.
(I played something yesterday with triple dotted notes, see No 4 of Schumanns Waldscenen)
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#10 Arundodonuts

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:24

QUOTE(linda.ff @ Feb 27 2013, 11:03 AM) View Post

One is always left wondering what is the point? Can you hear such things? Or is it just for being clever on paper?

I was at a Fearnyhough "do" at the RNCM a while ago and wondered the same thing. I am a fan of contemporary music but..... blink.gif
QUOTE

Surely what music sounds like is the only important thing? Or is it?

But what music sounds like is different to different people. I know for a fact that some music I like is regarded as noise by some (many?).

It struck me that in this case, there is an implicit challenge to the player to see how close they can get. The notation is incredibly precise - not just note lengths but things like dynamics are very precisley defined. Conlan Nancarrow wrote "impossible" pieces for player piano which have since been played accurately "manually".
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#11 maggiemay

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:27

Maybe a half-dotted quaver is a quarkver
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#12 linda.ff

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:38

QUOTE(maggiemay @ Feb 27 2013, 11:27 AM) View Post

Maybe a half-dotted quaver is a quarkver

Charming biggrin.gif
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#13 jim palmer

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 14:29

1 semibreve = 1/1 = 2/2 = 4/4 = 8/8 = 16/16 = 32/32.
1/7 = 5/35 ~ 5/32, where '~' means approximately!
So 1/7 ~ 4/32 + 1/32 = 1/8 + 1/32. How about 'quaveprox'
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rolleyes.gif
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#14 linda.ff

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 15:30

QUOTE(limh @ Feb 27 2013, 03:19 PM) View Post

I'm off in search of the Higgs-crotchet, an essential fundamental time-period involved in quantum minimics. I intend to use quavelet functions to model the approximate behaviour of the Higgs-crotchet and test the model by comparison with experimental data gained from dissonant inelastic collisions observed in the Large Chordal Collider, a 10-km circular stave located underground (to avoid interference by cosmic notation).

Alternatively I will be thankful for baroque inequality, and the fact that I'm allowed to play my dots with total imprecision provided I do so with Good Taste. Who cares about the 20th Century anyway?

(On a serious note, I assume that the vast majority of music uses rhythms built on repeating rhythmic structures only 2,3, or 4 beats long because that's about all that an average human can hear before we start to look for sub-rhythms, and end up perceiving compound time instead. If I try to count myself 7 beats in a bar, I find myself turning it into Da-da-da-da-Da-da-da or something, not Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. But a friend of my sister chose an organ piece as an entrance for her wedding which has no fixed time-signature. It is very clever; it sounds as though it does, but it doesn't. She liked a challenge for the procession).

I think rhythm is only made up of 2s and 3s anyway. Even 5 is 3+2 or 2+3. Caribbean 8 quavers to a bar is 3+3+2. Actually I bet Afro-caribbean musicians can play in 3/7 time <snaps fingers> just like that smile.gif
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#15 owainsutton

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 15:48

QUOTE(linda.ff @ Feb 27 2013, 11:03 AM) View Post

One is always left wondering what is the point? Can you hear such things? Or is it just for being clever on paper?

It's possible to hear such things, yes. It's often not easy to do so, but then again, hearing the detailed harmonic structure of a classical sonata isn't something that can be done without a great deal of background knowledge and experience.

It's worth pointing out that Ferneyhough certainly DOES hear these rhythms with a high degree of accuracy!

QUOTE(Arundodonuts @ Feb 27 2013, 11:24 AM) View Post

It struck me that in this case, there is an implicit challenge to the player to see how close they can get. The notation is incredibly precise - not just note lengths but things like dynamics are very precisley defined.

The challenge, not as a game but as an intellectual exercise, is definitely part of the objective. Ferneyhough doesn't see the score as mere instructions, nor does he simply want a robotically-accurate performance (he could be writing electronic music if that was the objective), but wants to emphasise but the intensity of the performance which can arise from the performer having to interract with the score on such a detailed level.
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